Archive:2007-07-22/log

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Log for 2007-07-22!

IRC log

20:14:29 <skyfaller>	alright, I guess that everyone who is coming is already here
20:14:31 <skyfaller>	let's start
20:14:38 <skyfaller>	agenda is at http://wiki.freeculture.org/2007-07-22  folks
20:14:42 <skyfaller>	anyone wanna take minutes?
20:14:42 <conley>	does anyone here ever want to strangle the cinelerra programmers
20:14:43 <mattl>	is there anything i can volunteer for, web wise, that won't require me to use launchpad, which i oppose on moral grounds?
20:15:03 <skyfaller>	mattl: yeah, take minutes on our wiki ;-)  it's not launchpad!
20:15:11 <conley>	mattl: explanation?...Is it because canonical made it?
20:15:13 <paulproteus>	mattl, Well, can I ask you how you define use?
20:15:28 <gavinbaker>	skyfaller, don't let him take minutes. he'll spell everything wrong... with "-our" and "-re"
20:15:33 <paulproteus>	Is it okay if I ask you to read it (send it GET requests) but not really interact with it as an application (send it POST requests)?
20:15:54 <mattl>	skyfaller: no, because i'm not going to be here long enough. plus, i spell properly, as gavin 'snowy owl' baker, points out.
20:15:58 <skyfaller>	mattl probably objects to the fact that launchpad isn't fully open source yet, although they released the first part of it recently
20:16:09 <Ax3>	what happened!?
20:16:14 <paulproteus>	skyfaller, Huh, they did?
20:16:25 <gavinbaker>	mattl, O RLY?
20:16:30 <nile>	Ax3, we sent your house on fire! cool, huh!!
20:16:31 <gavinbaker>	Ax3: you're here to help us.
20:16:34 <conley>	skyfaller: ah, I had no idea what launchpad was until I got here
20:16:38 <paulproteus>	I thought I was going to secretly turn FreeCulture.org into RelyingOnHostedProprietaryServices.org.
20:16:41 <Ax3>	ohh
20:16:49 <mattl>	i also object to skyfaller using the term 'open source' with respect to myself. 
20:16:51 *	Ax3 puts away fire extinguisher
20:16:51 <gavinbaker>	s/.org/.orgy
20:16:55 <paulproteus>	mattl, Anyway, thoughts on GET vs. POST?
20:17:08 <skyfaller>	I object to anal nitpicking over terminology
20:17:16 <mattl>	paulproteus: i don't want to visit launchpad.net at all, ever.
20:17:17 <gavinbaker>	So! Welcome to the meeting.
20:17:21 <conley>	mattl: I agree with skyfaller
20:17:21 *	nile , uh, bakes everyone cookies
20:17:25 <Ax3>	well i'll listen in but im not sure what the topic is haha...
20:17:28 <gavinbaker>	We'll start with some reportbacks from our existing projects.
20:17:34 <Ax3>	or err 'read' in...
20:17:36 *	conley slaps cinelerra in the face
20:17:42 <gavinbaker>	Hey paulproteus, how's the Web Team coming?
20:18:11 <paulproteus>	gavinbaker, Well, I got us going on backups
20:18:15 <mattl>	conley, skyfaller: considering my work for the FSF, i feel justified in disassociating myself from the term 'open source', so please don't use it to describe me.
20:18:25 <paulproteus>	Real backups, the kind that in case of disaster you could put the whole website back together with.
20:18:36 <paulproteus>	Of course, I'm the only one with access to them, but in case of emergency that should be fine.
20:18:37 <gavinbaker>	hey paulproteus, that's great! do you know how many bugs the Web Team closed in the past week?
20:18:46 <mattl>	paulproteus: want somewhere over here to keep backups? :)
20:18:49 <skyfaller>	reminder folks, we are trying to stick to the agenda listed at http://wiki.freeculture.org/2007-07-22
20:18:57 <conley>	Don't worry, I will never call you open source
20:19:21 <paulproteus>	mattl, Right now the server's in Japan and the backups in San Francisco so I think we're okay.
20:19:38 <paulproteus>	http://wiki.freeculture.org/2007-07-22 says we closed 10 of them.
20:19:45 <nile>	so if the disaster is a bus carrying a nuclear warhead that smashes into paulproteus and destroys the building the server is in...
20:19:51 <paulproteus>	Some kind soul filled that in for me; everyone else can have a looksies too.
20:20:15 <gavinbaker>	paulproteus, hot damn! anything cool in those bugs we closed or triaged?
20:20:21 <paulproteus>	nile, Then watermelon cantaloupe.
20:20:31 <mattl>	call me crazy, but as you're a US-centric organisation, why is your server in Japan? Also, do you have a backup server, and what if you get hit by a bus, which given your new hobby of IRC on the road, might well happen.
20:20:46 <paulproteus>	lol, mattl. (-:
20:21:02 *	mindspillage agrees with mattl re: launchpad and "open source", fwiw.
20:21:06 <paulproteus>	Yeah, authorship on blog posts, plus a working favicon, plus we some little breakages caused by our redesign were fixed.
20:21:11 <paulproteus>	Plus valid markup everywhere.
20:21:26 *	TimHwang_ (n=chatzill@ool-4350680d.dyn.optonline.net) has joined #freeculture
20:21:34 <mattl>	i'd be willing to keep a UK backup of paulproteus's backups, if that'd be useful. it would certainly be sensible.
20:21:56 <gavinbaker>	yo TimHwang_, how's it hangin'
20:22:08 <paulproteus>	I disagree re: launchpad and agree re: open source, fwiw. (-;
20:22:15 <TimHwang_>	gavinbaker: awesome, sry about being late. just got home
20:22:24 <gavinbaker>	paulproteus: if mattl wants to talk backups with you, without talking about it in the channel, where can he do that? ;)
20:22:26 <paulproteus>	Oh, we really want help implementing a new chapters database.
20:22:30 <gavinbaker>	s/in the channel/during a meeting
20:22:34 <paulproteus>	I really want someone with some web app dev experience to take this off my shoulders.
20:22:39 <paulproteus>	gavinbaker, PM would be fine.
20:22:46 <paulproteus>	But I really don't think those would be any help.
20:23:11 <paulproteus>	On the other hand, if I do get hit by a bus, as is more likely now....
20:23:18 <paulproteus>	...mattl, let's talk post-meeting?
20:23:22 *	Fear_of_C (n=nick@cpe-66-65-84-36.nyc.res.rr.com) has joined #freeculture
20:23:28 <mattl>	paulproteus: is there anything already written?
20:23:32 <gavinbaker>	redundancy's never bad, is what i say.
20:23:36 <skyfaller>	Fear_of_C: howdy Nick :)
20:23:42 <gavinbaker>	but there's a lot more to talk about! so onward
20:23:43 <mattl>	er.. i'm off to bed in five mins. it's late here.
20:23:45 <Fear_of_C>	sorry
20:23:52 <Fear_of_C>	I didn't realize what time it was
20:24:01 <skyfaller>	no prob, that happens on the weekends
20:24:05 <gavinbaker>	hey paulproteus, the wiki here says that backups isn't the only cool thing you accomplished this week!
20:24:08 <paulproteus>	mattl, You can find me later, I'm sure we know where to look for each other!
20:24:14 <gavinbaker>	it also says that our entire site is now valid xhtml / css / rss!
20:24:15 <mattl>	paulproteus/gavinbaker: email me if there's anything you want me to do, yeah?
20:24:26 <mattl>	bye folks.
20:24:29 <mattl>	bye nelson :)
20:24:33 <paulproteus>	gavinbaker, Er, what else did I accomplish that was cool that I didn't address above.
20:24:36 *	mattl (n=mattl@gnu/chief-webmaster/mattl) has left #freeculture
20:24:39 <paulproteus>	mattl, one sec!
20:24:43 <skyfaller>	too late
20:24:43 <paulproteus>	mattl, Look at http://freeculture.org:8080/svn/turbogears-db/ for the existing code.
20:24:45 <gavinbaker>	moreover, we're now keeping an off-site status blog, so you can check that if something blows up!
20:24:47 <paulproteus>	Oh, well.
20:24:50 <paulproteus>	Confounded lag! (-;
20:25:13 <gavinbaker>	and we finally managed to get that silly CC license up, minus the metadata, which is forthcoming
20:25:37 <paulproteus>	Oh, yeah, the status blog.
20:25:44 <skyfaller>	Fear_of_C: would you be interested in working with us on the Chapters database?
20:25:51 <gavinbaker>	paulproteus: will you tell the kind people about the status blog and where to find it?
20:25:52 <paulproteus>	fcostatus.wordpress.com in case of emergency
20:26:01 <Fear_of_C>	skyfaller: yeah
20:26:19 <gavinbaker>	we also fixed some other stuff that was broken, including getting the favicon back up. we also improved the footer on the web site, and the contact page
20:26:21 <paulproteus>	If something's wrong, hopefully one of us will still be alive and can blog about it at fcostatus.wordpress.com.
20:26:28 <Fear_of_C>	though I shouldn't have spoken until I know what kind of work you had in mind...
20:26:40 <paulproteus>	If you notice something's wrong and you can't file a bug, fcostatus.wordpress.com has info on what to do.  That info is also on the contact page, but this is sort of boring.
20:26:46 <gavinbaker>	so what's up with this chapters database?
20:26:49 <skyfaller>	paulproteus: tell Fear_of_C how he can get involved with the chapters DB :)
20:27:21 <paulproteus>	We want to be able to track who's the current contact person at a chapter, and keep the old person's info around even in case the person in charge switches around.
20:28:01 <paulproteus>	So we're redesigning it as per this starting code <http://freeculture.org:8080/svn/turbogears-db/> and there's a wiki page too I'll find in a sec with more of a spec.
20:28:22 <gavinbaker>	and we need to launch the new system by next Sunday, because it needs to be open for chapters to re-register for the upcoming year (and the vote on the bylaws)
20:28:39 <skyfaller>	paulproteus: http://wiki.freeculture.org/Hosting_chapters#Software  was the page... not sure if it's still up to date / accurate
20:28:48 *	tannewt (n=scott@gentoo/developer/tannewt) has joined #freeculture
20:29:06 <paulproteus>	http://wiki.freeculture.org/Website_Documentation/Database_Schema
20:29:11 <paulproteus>	Good point gavinbaker.
20:29:27 <paulproteus>	I was hoping to do it in Python since that's the language I know best and love most.
20:29:31 <skyfaller>	ah, so there was another page, interesting
20:29:41 <paulproteus>	This does limit the number of people who can participate with that coding, though.  Fear_of_C, hack you Python?
20:29:49 <Fear_of_C>	yes
20:29:51 <skyfaller>	yay!
20:29:57 <Fear_of_C>	:)
20:30:03 <paulproteus>	skyfaller, Yours is better; mine's a tech spec, not a spec of why the tech is needed.
20:30:36 <gavinbaker>	Ax3, nile, poningru, conley, and mark007 can be handy with a keyboard, too. they may be interested in helping get this piece of critical infrastructure up
20:30:58 <paulproteus>	That'd be nice.
20:31:01 <Ax3>	here's the thing
20:31:11 <gavinbaker>	the launchpad bugs, fwiw, are https://bugs.launchpad.net/web/+bug/125185 (database and admin interface) and https://bugs.launchpad.net/web/+bug/125291 (user interface)
20:31:15 <paulproteus>	I'll take a little bit post-meeting to figure out exactly where help can be used.
20:31:25 <paulproteus>	I think the point where we are it's not very serializable.
20:31:33 <paulproteus>	I mean it's entirely serial, sorry.
20:31:49 *	nile doesn't code
20:31:50 <conley>	um...I really don't enjoy scripting
20:32:16 <conley>	But yes, I can hack python
20:32:17 <Ax3>	i volunteered help in the past but never got access to anything... maybe I wasn't proactive enough
20:32:23 *	Ax3 shrugs
20:32:26 <paulproteus>	I'll have a better idea soon of what I want people to do, so I wouldn't worry about it too much right now, y'all.
20:32:31 <paulproteus>	Ax3, Oh, oops.
20:32:46 <paulproteus>	In general, we tend to give out access once someone agrees to do something.
20:33:05 <paulproteus>	"soon" should be tonight for a breakdown of the project.
20:33:18 <paulproteus>	I could stop talking on IRC and do that right now if that'd be better....
20:33:27 <gavinbaker>	paulproteus: how should people willing to help get involved?
20:33:57 <paulproteus>	It'd be great if people who know Python and might want to help could sign the wiki page that skyfaller listed.
20:34:15 <Ax3>	i just need hard leadership lol
20:34:28 <Ax3>	"AxE, i need this, by wednesday, go do it"
20:34:30 <gavinbaker>	paulproteus: ...and you'll be in contact with whoever signs that page?
20:34:35 <paulproteus>	Ax3, Hmm, I'll keep that in mind. (-:
20:34:43 <paulproteus>	You got it - that's http://wiki.freeculture.org/Hosting_chapters#Software again.
20:34:46 <skyfaller>	you mean http://wiki.freeculture.org/Hosting_chapters#Software  ?  that's a slightly odd way to do things.  
20:34:50 <gavinbaker>	paulproteus: besides Python stuff, is there anything needed to get this flying in T-7?
20:34:52 <skyfaller>	but ok
20:35:03 <paulproteus>	Just your IRC nick is fine if you'll be around, but no matter what make sure you're on the webteam list; I'll be talking there by email.
20:35:16 <skyfaller>	people who want to help with web stuff and aren't on the web team list should get there posthaste
20:35:27 <gavinbaker>	Web Team list: http://freeculture.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/webteam
20:35:43 <paulproteus>	gavinbaker, Thanks for the link.
20:35:53 <gavinbaker>	sounds good, paulproteus. are there regular meetings for this crazy team, for someone interested in helping generally?
20:36:23 <paulproteus>	gavinbaker, We used to do meetings regularly Wednesday nights, though lately I haven't been good about calling for them.
20:36:37 <paulproteus>	Does that work for everyone interested, and if so, is there a particular time range that doesn't work?
20:37:13 <skyfaller>	Fear_of_C ? Ax3 ? conley ?
20:37:17 <Fear_of_C>	I guess
20:37:19 <paulproteus>	Then I say Wednesdays at 9 Eastern.
20:37:25 <conley>	Sure
20:37:37 <paulproteus>	That's PM, btw. (-:
20:37:58 <gavinbaker>	sweet!
20:38:08 <Ax3>	yup shouldn't be a problem
20:38:10 <skyfaller>	ok
20:38:15 <paulproteus>	Then that's exactly what we'll do.
20:38:17 <skyfaller>	I think we need to get stuff done before then though
20:38:23 <skyfaller>	so let's meet at the end of this meeting
20:38:27 <skyfaller>	as suggested earlier
20:38:30 <skyfaller>	to get things rolling
20:38:40 <paulproteus>	We definitely do, and that's why I'll try to break down the tasks tonight.
20:38:41 <Ax3>	pinging me in irc works well too
20:38:45 <paulproteus>	In fact, s/try //
20:38:50 <skyfaller>	OK, groovy
20:38:52 <gavinbaker>	cool, so anyone who wants to help with the database specifically, hang out afterwards here.
20:38:53 <gavinbaker>	we should also have a meeting to discuss our Net strategy overall -- making all these pieces fit together.
20:39:04 <gavinbaker>	that doesn't need to happen immediately, but should happen sometime.
20:39:09 <gavinbaker>	do we want to schedule that?
20:39:29 <gavinbaker>	i've started sketching out some stuff on the wiki: http://wiki.freeculture.org/Net_architecture_strategy_meeting
20:39:42 <skyfaller>	why don't we do it two Weds from now
20:39:42 <paulproteus>	gavinbaker, Sure, I think doing that on W sounds like a good idea.
20:39:53 <skyfaller>	like, August 1st
20:40:08 <skyfaller>	the next Weds meeting should be dedicated to wrapping up the chapters DB
20:40:27 <gavinbaker>	[btw: skyfaller, if you're logging this, i'll post minutes on the wiki later, and send it to the list(s).]
20:40:29 <paulproteus>	Sure, that makes enough sense.  Let's do it that way.
20:40:39 <skyfaller>	gavinbaker: yeah, I got logs
20:40:47 <skyfaller>	paulproteus: OK, sounds good
20:40:52 <gavinbaker>	right on. so that's it for the web team. thanks paulproteus !
20:40:58 <gavinbaker>	hey TimHwang_, wanna talk about fundraising?
20:41:07 <paulproteus>	Sure thing.
20:41:25 <TimHwang_>	gavinbaker, sure thing
20:41:51 <TimHwang_>	so, at the general meeting during the FC conference this year, there was alot of discussion about the best way of going about raising funds for projects
20:42:08 <TimHwang_>	there was essentially two basic (non-mutually exclusive) models that came out of it
20:42:44 <TimHwang_>	the first, was the 501c3, which raised some debate as potentially being itself really costly and unnecessarily centralizing
20:42:59 <TimHwang_>	though certainly had some benefits in terms of tax deductability, etc
20:43:14 <paulproteus>	(plus in foundations being willing to fund)
20:43:17 <TimHwang_>	the second, which is the one i've been playing around with since that meeting, is the idea of distributed financing
20:43:21 <TimHwang_>	paulproteus: without a doubt
20:43:44 <TimHwang_>	the second essentially is to aggregate people involved in free culture who are interested in 
20:43:52 <TimHwang_>	a) personally financing projects if the right one came along
20:44:02 <TimHwang_>	b) helping to work out ways to finance projects
20:44:19 <TimHwang_>	so we've put together a list on, recently, the FC server, adorably named
20:44:29 <TimHwang_>	"FC-fundrai$ing"
20:45:00 <TimHwang_>	and the basic mission is to have a community of people that FCers can forward project ideas to
20:45:07 <gavinbaker>	TimHwang_: and people interested in helping should join that list?
20:45:13 <TimHwang_>	yep
20:45:24 <gavinbaker>	that's http://freeculture.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fundraising for the interested
20:45:37 <gavinbaker>	TimHwang_: are you moving the Google Group over to the new list, and closing up the old one?
20:45:48 <TimHwang_>	yep, as of yesterday, we're all over on FC servers
20:45:52 <TimHwang_>	since google was pretty creepy
20:45:56 <skyfaller>	r0x0r!
20:46:05 <gavinbaker>	creepygoogle--
20:46:08 <TimHwang_>	skyfaller: haha definitely
20:46:24 <gavinbaker>	TimHwang_: anything else to report?
20:47:01 <TimHwang_>	yeah, there's a few general remarks worth making about the cashmoney$ experiment that I think might be useful re: the more general question of FC and funds
20:47:07 <paulproteus>	I guess the main message for "volunteers" is "join this other list too"?
20:47:25 <skyfaller>	(if you're interested in helping raise funds for FC.o or related projects, yes)
20:47:30 <TimHwang_>	yep
20:48:22 <skyfaller>	... I think Asheesh's question may have been, "how can volunteers help with fundraising aside from joining this mailing list?"
20:48:40 <paulproteus>	Not necessarily; I presume further notes will be sent out there.
20:48:48 <paulproteus>	Whoa, a lot of people at this burger place.  I guess it's becoming dinner time.
20:49:23 <gavinbaker>	TimHwang_: if there are "further notes" about how to get involved, as paulproteus suggests, do feel free to mention them here
20:49:58 <TimHwang_>	in terms of getting involved, i think joining the list will be best. if people have individual ideas on fundraising, definitely get directly in touch though
20:50:00 <TimHwang_>	(with me)
20:50:04 *	BrianRowe (n=Brion@71-32-86-114.tukw.qwest.net) has joined #freeculture
20:50:23 <gavinbaker>	TimHwang_: how should people get in touch with you? or just they just post to the list?
20:50:36 <skyfaller>	I think posting to the list sounds better unless there's something secret...
20:50:41 <TimHwang_>	they can feel free to just shoot me an e-mail at thwang@fas.harvard.edu
20:50:46 <TimHwang_>	skyfaller: my thoughts exactly
20:50:56 <skyfaller>	yeah, no reason to make Tim the bottleneck
20:51:06 <TimHwang_>	heh, yep
20:51:10 <skyfaller>	otherwise we've got Tim 1.0 instead of Tim 2.0 ;-)
20:51:11 <paulproteus>	For y'all's info, TimHwang_ sends more email than I do, which I find shocking.
20:51:18 <gavinbaker>	TimHwang_: you know, if you pronounce your email address, it sounds pretty awesome. "thwang!"
20:51:33 <TimHwang_>	gavinbaker: yeah, i revel in that every day
20:51:48 <paulproteus>	Wow, that never occurred to me.
20:51:57 <TimHwang_>	not sure if this fits into the agenda, but can i mention what we've discovered in the month or so we've been running the list?
20:52:06 <TimHwang_>	don't want to disrupt the flow of the meeting if it isn't
20:52:11 <gavinbaker>	TimHwang_: yeah, please tell us what's been going on!
20:52:15 *	nile feels insecure about his non-onomatopoeic email address =( =( =(
20:52:18 <skyfaller>	TimHwang_: take as much time as you want :)
20:52:34 <gavinbaker>	the point of these meetings is to lower the barrier to entry, and make it easy for everyone to find out what's going on in the org
20:52:50 <TimHwang_>	gavinbaker, skyfaller: awesome thanks, haha, this will be quick, i promise
20:53:38 <gavinbaker>	(p.s. hi BrianRowe )
20:53:41 <TimHwang_>	the first thing we've noticed, having opened up the list to FC discuss -- is that in the general FC mindspace, the focus still vastly favors local projects
20:53:55 *	aphid has quit ()
20:53:57 <TimHwang_>	which might confirm Fred's original thoughts on fundraising
20:54:01 <paulproteus>	Good.
20:54:14 <TimHwang_>	that is, that it may be the case that we might not even need "funding at the national level"
20:54:19 <TimHwang_>	or international level for that matter
20:54:34 <TimHwang_>	since people are finding that it's most beneficial to build projects and fund projects locally
20:54:48 <gavinbaker>	TimHwang_: i'm sure everyone here who wasn't able to attend the conference agrees with you ;) but anyway
20:55:35 <TimHwang_>	in which case, the swarm-financing model might be best, since it's essentially just a passive resource that people can ping if and when they're looking for connections to other broader potential donors
20:55:40 <TimHwang_>	haha, gavinbaker, thanks
20:57:00 <gavinbaker>	TimHwang_: so if a chapter is looking for help with a project, or has leads on potential funds for others (e.g. available grants), they should post that to the list?
20:57:33 <TimHwang_>	yep, gavinbaker, to a certain extent it's started to function as that -- stark had me mail out some funding opportunities, etc
20:57:45 <paulproteus>	Ooh!
20:57:55 <paulproteus>	TimHwang_, Will you / have you / want you help import(ing) the archives?
20:58:02 <TimHwang_>	i think that might actually be best -- just making people aware of opportunities that are FC related as they come up
20:58:06 <TimHwang_>	sure, there's not much there
20:58:32 <skyfaller>	TimHwang_: I think that local fundraising is great, but as we'll have to discuss in more detail in the future, there is need for national-level fundraising.
20:58:40 <skyfaller>	TimHwang_: E.g. transportation costs to the national summit
20:58:51 <gavinbaker>	( TimHwang_, i posted a grant to the chapters list the other day. i'll forward it to fundraising when i get on it )
20:59:04 <TimHwang_>	gavinbaker, awesome, thanks
20:59:23 <Fear_of_C>	I think it might be helpful to have national fundraising as we get larger
20:59:51 <Fear_of_C>	because larger organizations will see us on the radar, and we want to at least look organized to them
21:00:07 <skyfaller>	this is certainly something we can table until later meetings
21:00:31 <skyfaller>	but as always, I want to emphasize that taking one approach does not prevent us from taking other approaches in parallel / at the same time
21:00:48 <gavinbaker>	right, this meeting is for volunteers interesting in working on stuff, not discussing the future of the organization. (do that on the Talk page for the Bylaws! :D )
21:01:10 <TimHwang_>	gavinbaker: cool
21:01:24 <gavinbaker>	so, anyone interesting in getting funding or helping find funding, for chapters or for FreeCulture.org, should join the fundraising list
21:01:24 <TimHwang_>	i'll just add one last observation from our experience with cashmoney$ quickly
21:01:29 <gavinbaker>	and if anybody comes across funding opportunities but isn't on the list, they can join at any time; or, if they don't want to join, just send it to TimHwang_ or someone and it'll get forwarded to the list.
21:01:53 <TimHwang_>	cool
21:03:04 <skyfaller>	type quicker, Tim! ;-)
21:03:13 <paulproteus>	Type like it's email!
21:03:18 <TimHwang_>	hrm -- actually, it's more of a general 'activism strategy' point, so i'll withdraw it
21:03:33 <gavinbaker>	ok. onward, then! thanks, TimHwang_ !
21:03:42 <TimHwang_>	gavinbaker, sure, anytime
21:03:51 <gavinbaker>	TimHwang_: next sunday night? ;)
21:04:04 <gavinbaker>	now we're in the Help Wanted part of the meeting, the time to look for volunteers and pitch new projects
21:04:16 <TimHwang_>	gavinbaker: sure -- just give me the heads up when
21:04:27 <gavinbaker>	TimHwang_: it'll be on the volunteers list :D
21:04:46 <gavinbaker>	if you have an idea, please add them to the agenda for the next meeting, and we'll talk about it!
21:05:05 <gavinbaker>	so we've got need for some bloggers, at the moment. any bloggers in the hiz-ouse?
21:05:45 <nile>	as in, someone to post FC.o news and general news of FC-related issues?
21:05:48 *	nile would be up for that
21:05:53 <skyfaller>	yay nile !
21:06:01 <gavinbaker>	the stories are linked on the wiki:
21:06:05 <gavinbaker>	one's about an FCC comment we signed which was released last week
21:06:16 <gavinbaker>	another's about the NIH Public Access policy that passed the House last week, courtesy of the Alliance for Taxpayer Access (of which FC.o is a member)
21:06:33 <nile>	FCC comment about 700mhz?
21:06:41 <gavinbaker>	we're also waiting on that damn NYTimes article about us to drop, which will probably happen soon. when that happens, we want to blog it asap
21:06:55 <skyfaller>	gavinbaker: where on the wiki?
21:06:56 <gavinbaker>	nile: it's a reply to NBC's comments suggesting we break the internet. links are on the agenda for today's meeting
21:07:10 <nile>	gavinbaker, oh, okay
21:07:18 <Fear_of_C>	I'm also on call for blogging
21:07:36 <gavinbaker>	why doesn't whoever's interested claim a story they want to blog?
21:07:38 <nile>	http://wiki.freeculture.org/2007-07-22
21:07:43 <paulproteus>	gavinbaker, Can you also talk about the Break the Internet coalition?
21:07:50 <gavinbaker>	there are 2 ready to go, and 1 coming up soon.
21:08:01 <gavinbaker>	paulproteus, sure, i'll pretend it was on the agenda for today ;)
21:08:05 <paulproteus>	It'd be cool if someone wants to run that website / "organization".
21:08:13 *	paulproteus goes and double-checks
21:08:14 <nile>	I'll go with the NBC+FFC story
21:08:16 <nile>	er, FCC*
21:08:28 <Fear_of_C>	ok, guess I'll take House Backs Taxpayer-Funded Research Acces
21:08:49 <nile>	Fear_of_C, I'm open to trade, if you want :(
21:08:55 <nile>	argh! s,(,),
21:09:02 <gavinbaker>	right on. nile, Fear_of_C: you have blog accounts?
21:09:08 <Fear_of_C>	yep
21:09:11 <nile>	gavinbaker, no
21:09:12 <gavinbaker>	if not, PM me; or if you have any other questions
21:09:28 <gavinbaker>	anyone volunteer to watch the NYT for the story and blog it when it drops?
21:09:41 <paulproteus>	skyfaller, BTW are you okay with turning registration 
21:09:44 <paulproteus>	omg a pole
21:09:50 <paulproteus>	brb
21:09:52 <BrianRowe>	(back from afk)
21:09:56 <Fear_of_C>	nile: if you want to trade, I'm neutral
21:10:06 <skyfaller>	wtf?
21:10:39 <paulproteus>	skyfaller, BTW are you okay with turning registration on on the blog, perhaps requiring a recaptcha?
21:10:41 *	nile imagines paulproteus wandering the streets of wherever he is, cheating death time and time again
21:11:02 <Fear_of_C>	nile: do you actively want to trade?
21:11:34 <skyfaller>	paulproteus: only if you can keep the bots out.  If one bot gets through, I'm turning registration back on.  Until we get an anti-spam czar who isn't me.
21:11:58 <gavinbaker>	the place to watch NYT for the story is http://www.nytimes.com/pages/education/edlife/index.html, or maybe http://www.nytimes.com/pages/education/index.html
21:12:07 <nile>	Fear_of_C, nope. it's cool
21:12:21 <skyfaller>	erm, turning registration back *off*
21:12:43 <nile>	wait! I need to register!
21:12:44 <skyfaller>	I just have no patience for dealing with spam registrations
21:12:58 <paulproteus>	skyfaller, Sounds good.
21:12:59 *	nile promises he isn't a spam bot =( =( =(
21:13:03 <Fear_of_C>	hmm... is there a way that we can share a password or something for registration?
21:13:10 <gavinbaker>	nile, that's not what UF's greylist says.
21:13:11 *	nile offers skyfaller some viagra in exchange for a blog account
21:13:15 <skyfaller>	no, sharing accounts is a silly idea
21:13:15 <Fear_of_C>	make it so you have to sign onto irc to register
21:13:22 <Fear_of_C>	no no, not sharing an account
21:13:27 <skyfaller>	oh... that sounds even weirder
21:13:31 <gavinbaker>	hey, can we take the spam conversations somewhere else?
21:13:34 <gavinbaker>	so we can finish this meeting?
21:13:41 <Ax3>	im gonna stop trolling for a bit and make dinner :)
21:13:48 <gavinbaker>	whatever happens, can we make sure nile gets his account so he can blog?
21:13:53 *	nile pipes down, but needs to register an account somehow
21:14:03 <gavinbaker>	glad that's decided.
21:14:14 <gavinbaker>	so: volunteers for watching NYT for our story, and blogging it?
21:14:15 <skyfaller>	paulproteus: can I just go make nile an account?
21:14:17 <paulproteus>	gavinbaker, Go make him an account and ignore skyfaller's and my conversation for now.\
21:14:35 <skyfaller>	ok, I'll make nile's account. 
21:14:43 <paulproteus>	Great.
21:14:44 <nile>	gavinbaker, I'll do the NYT story as well
21:14:49 <gavinbaker>	nile, bug skyfaller 'til it happens.
21:15:07 <gavinbaker>	nile, great. the links to watch are in scrollback. if you're lucky, they might even have RSS ;)
21:15:27 <gavinbaker>	you could also get a google alert or something for "FreeCulture.org" to see news stories when they drop
21:16:03 <paulproteus>	Or cron + curl + grep
21:16:20 *	nile listens to paulproteus 
21:16:27 <gavinbaker>	so, that's it for blogging. thanks, Fear_of_C and nile ! PM me if you have any questions.
21:17:00 <paulproteus>	Or ask here post-meeting.
21:17:20 <gavinbaker>	next: um, so we've had these two ideas floating around about organizing concerts at/near colleges
21:17:29 <gavinbaker>	with the Digital Freedom Campaign, about p2p
21:17:34 <Fear_of_C>	concerts, sweet :)
21:17:37 <gavinbaker>	and/or with the Future of Music Coalition, about Net neutrality
21:17:59 <paulproteus>	Some random people want to use us as "people on the ground" to support their causes.
21:18:07 <gavinbaker>	we haven't gotten much beyond thinking "that'd be neat"
21:18:11 <gavinbaker>	so: 1.) who's interested?
21:18:27 <gavinbaker>	2.) who wants to help? (specifically: anyone willing to lead this up?)
21:19:15 <gavinbaker>	i'm not sure what's involved with making this happen. so whoever wants to lead this will need to make contact, find out what work is needed, and report that back -- that's their first job
21:19:19 *	maiki (n=maiki@c-67-188-32-37.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) has joined #freeculture
21:19:27 <Fear_of_C>	interested, probably too extended to lead this, will contact ben as soon as i can, because he would probably be really into this
21:19:35 <skyfaller>	maiki: howdy!  have we met?
21:20:11 <maiki>	Well, there is always that chance. maiki is my actual name.
21:20:34 <gavinbaker>	by 1.) i meant: what are people's thoughts about this idea? cool, dumb, easy, hard, lol?
21:20:37 <skyfaller>	nooo, jibot isn't here
21:20:41 <skyfaller>	we need our own bot
21:20:55 <Fear_of_C>	it sounds cool, but it's very vague
21:21:13 <gavinbaker>	Fear_of_C: right, we need someone to volunteer to do some research and make it less vague :D
21:22:08 <paulproteus>	Hello maiki, pleased to meet you.
21:22:15 <skyfaller>	maiki: are you involved with one of our chapters?
21:22:39 <maiki>	Hello all. I am not involved, though I wish to be.
21:22:49 <maiki>	I had contacted someone at the UCSC chapter.
21:23:13 <skyfaller>	maiki: are you at UCSC?
21:23:43 <maiki>	Hmmm, tough question. I attended a community college nearby, though I lived at UCSC (on campus).
21:23:56 <maiki>	I am moving soon, to Berkeley.
21:24:04 <gavinbaker>	so... no thoughts on the concerts? no volunteers, either?
21:24:27 <skyfaller>	maiki: ah, so are you moving on into the real world, or did you get sucked back into grad school? ;-)
21:24:33 <Fear_of_C>	gavinbaker: I would like to help, but I am about bury myself in projects
21:24:33 <paulproteus>	maiki, We'll have to chat more post-meeting. (-:
21:24:45 <Fear_of_C>	gavinbaker: I will look into this and post what I find
21:24:56 <nile>	gavinbaker, it seems like a lot of work :)
21:24:58 <Fear_of_C>	I just can't be the person who gets handed this job when fall comes
21:25:06 <skyfaller>	Fear_of_C: we can talk to Ben at least
21:25:10 <skyfaller>	he's a good start
21:25:15 <Fear_of_C>	yeah, I think ben is our best hope
21:25:17 <gavinbaker>	right. we don't need someone to commit permanently. but we need someone to get the ball rolling, at least
21:25:18 <skyfaller>	Fear_of_C: can you ping him about it?
21:25:30 <Fear_of_C>	next time I see him I will
21:26:26 <gavinbaker>	*shrug* well, if there's nobody atm, there's nobody. moving on
21:26:26 *	mindspillage is now known as mind|distracted
21:26:49 <Fear_of_C>	ok, I'll help atm
21:26:53 <gavinbaker>	hey, one way anybody can help is to improve our wiki: http://wiki.freeculture.org/
21:26:58 <gavinbaker>	Fear_of_C: I'll PM you
21:27:39 <gavinbaker>	there's plenty of stuff on the wiki that's outdated, inaccurate, disorganized, etc.
21:28:05 <gavinbaker>	plus we can always make it better and prettier :D
21:28:28 <gavinbaker>	so if you're interested, just wander by the wiki whenever and pull some weeds :)
21:28:36 <paulproteus>	maiki, I presume you're http://maiki.livejournal.com/profile ? (-;
21:28:40 *	mllerustad (n=mllerust@c-69-143-179-58.hsd1.va.comcast.net) has joined #freeculture
21:28:57 <gavinbaker>	next: there's been some talk about organizing Hill visits next year
21:29:02 <maiki>	Nope.
21:29:07 <nile>	Hill visits?
21:29:12 <gavinbaker>	where FC.o chapter members could come to DC and shake their fist at legislators
21:29:17 <Fear_of_C>	that sounds cool
21:29:18 <BrianRowe>	hill?
21:29:24 <gavinbaker>	also, meet cool people and party with them
21:29:30 <maiki>	paulproteus: http://claimid.com/maiki
21:29:30 <gavinbaker>	BrianRowe: as in, Capitol Hill
21:29:33 <Fear_of_C>	it also sounds like it will take some major organization and funding
21:29:36 <BrianRowe>	Ahh 
21:29:38 <nile>	0_0
21:30:04 <gavinbaker>	Fear_of_C: well, it will take some organizing. for funding, some people will be willing to fund their own travel & accommodations
21:30:30 <gavinbaker>	but if we can pull ourselves up by our bootstraps, right, we might even be able to help members get to DC who can't afford it on their own.
21:30:39 <Fear_of_C>	I would like to do that
21:30:39 *	gavinbaker shrugs in direction of TimHwang_ 
21:31:04 <gavinbaker>	Fear_of_C: do you mean you'd be interested in coming to the Hill if it was organized?
21:31:09 <Fear_of_C>	yes
21:31:19 <gavinbaker>	cool. anybody else have thoughts about doing Hill visits?
21:31:29 <paulproteus>	It
21:31:30 <Fear_of_C>	I was almost a polisci split major for a little while
21:31:34 <paulproteus>	's far away for me now. )-:
21:31:53 <paulproteus>	I'm happy to get people together to go to Sacramento, though.
21:32:06 <Fear_of_C>	we might be able to start with some local lobbying
21:32:15 <nile>	gavinbaker, what exactly does fist-shaking entail?
21:32:49 <gavinbaker>	nile: meetings are arranged with legislators/legislators' staff. then, the FC.o member is given a packet of information about cause(s)
21:32:55 <BrianRowe>	i may be interested,  there are some political orgs there we could try and meet with
21:33:27 <gavinbaker>	nile: the FC.o goes to the meeting, gives the legislator/aide the packet, and talks to them about why X sucks or why Y is great.
21:33:32 <Fear_of_C>	I think it will be easier to get meetings with local representatives, especially if you can get a presence on a college scene that is a significant portion of the district
21:33:45 <gavinbaker>	BrianRowe: right, it'd also be an opportunity for FC.o members to meet folks like Public Knowledge, who fight for us on the Hill.
21:33:52 <Fear_of_C>	(example: the town of Swarthmore)
21:34:05 <nile>	gavinbaker, that seems interesting
21:34:07 <Fear_of_C>	it will be more difficult to get meetings with congresspeople in washington
21:34:26 <gavinbaker>	Fear_of_C: chapters are always welcome to organize meetings with state/local representatives, but that's not something FC.o would generally be involved with
21:34:41 <gavinbaker>	Fear_of_C: it's actually not very hard to get a meeting with at least an aide.
21:34:55 <gavinbaker>	Fear_of_C: everybody, from every cause known to man, comes to DC and does it.
21:35:09 <Fear_of_C>	gavinbaker: that's why it's so hard though
21:35:09 <paulproteus>	Plus some causes known only to lawyers.
21:35:52 <Fear_of_C>	gavinbaker: to distinguish ourselves and convince the legislators to listen to us and not the big telcos or the RIAA w/ all the $
21:36:08 <gavinbaker>	Fear_of_C: well, first we have to show up.
21:36:15 <Fear_of_C>	to convince them that they are going to gain constituents, or something else of value, by listening to us
21:36:33 <gavinbaker>	we don't really have time to have a philosophical discussion about this
21:36:43 <paulproteus>	You'll gain constituents because in a Free Culture, there's more love!
21:36:54 <paulproteus>	</off-topic>
21:37:03 <gavinbaker>	my questions, again, are 1.) who's interested?  2.) who wants to help? (specifically, anyone willing to lead this up?)
21:38:08 <gavinbaker>	it sounded like some people responded in the affirmative to 1.), so the question now is more about 2.)
21:38:29 <gavinbaker>	anyone who wants to help, speak now or forever hold your peace! (at least, hold it until next week)
21:38:47 <Fear_of_C>	want to help, yes
21:39:16 <Fear_of_C>	but again, I don't want to commit to lead everything
21:39:28 <gavinbaker>	Fear_of_C: we don't want you to commit to lead everything, either ;)
21:39:57 <gavinbaker>	if there's no one else atm, i'll note Fear_of_C's interest and we'll continue to look for help on this.
21:40:08 <Fear_of_C>	it sounds like this is up my alley though, so I'll get in on the planning for sure
21:40:17 <skyfaller>	like Nick said, we can ping Ben Mazer at Swat and see if he's interested
21:40:54 <gavinbaker>	(this is a good time to mention that everyone can do their part by telling their friends & chapter members to join the volunteers list and to come to volunteers meetings)
21:41:19 <gavinbaker>	so, there's that. next:
21:42:12 <gavinbaker>	there's been some initial work on search tools for students assigned public domain texts for class
21:42:38 <gavinbaker>	building off the Flash drive hand-out of core texts at Columbia's chapter
21:43:19 <gavinbaker>	the idea is to make it mind-numbingly easy and convenient to find a copy of "Moby Dick" that you've been assigned in class
21:43:38 <gavinbaker>	so that you don't have to spend $x for a paper copy, unless you want to
21:44:09 <gavinbaker>	and further, to use this tool as a way to promote the public domain and open education resources
21:44:34 <gavinbaker>	you can check out the wiki for more info; it's linked from the agenda for today.
21:45:30 <gavinbaker>	we need to identify which databases to search (e.g. Project Gutenberg), write a search API, script up automatic formatting, and make end-user interfaces (e.g. a Firefox search plugin, a Facebook application)
21:45:55 <nile>	cool stuff
21:45:59 <gavinbaker>	Brendan's been the main person on this, but he couldn't be here right now
21:46:11 <gavinbaker>	so: 1.) what are people's thoughts on this?  2.) who wants to help?
21:46:32 <gavinbaker>	* we also need to do PR to promote the tools, once we make them
21:46:46 <Fear_of_C>	2) I script, and I know a couple of python wizards
21:47:19 <Fear_of_C>	(I also do PHP)
21:47:35 <nile>	gavinbaker, what's "automatic formatting" mean? making them into ebooks, PDFs, HTML pages?
21:47:42 <gavinbaker>	nile: right, that sort of thing.
21:47:58 <Fear_of_C>	if that's what we're doing, it's probably a lot of gluing other programs together
21:48:10 <gavinbaker>	Fear_of_C: right, and making pretty interfaces for them.
21:48:33 <gavinbaker>	essentially we're making front-ends, and trying to make them really simple and pretty.
21:48:47 <gavinbaker>	mllerustad, i don't suppose you're interested in doing design on this?
21:49:02 <gavinbaker>	pyrak: i don't suppose you're interested in helping build the web stuff for this?
21:49:02 <mllerustad>	I can make things pretty, sure.
21:49:22 <gavinbaker>	if anybody has experience making Facebook applications or OpenSearch plugins, this would be an awesome time to say so!
21:49:32 <maiki>	Has any research been done as to what students look for in searching for texts?
21:49:53 <paulproteus>	maiki, Good thinking.  I don't really think so; gavinbaker, thoughts?
21:49:57 <gavinbaker>	maiki: nope, only anecdotal
21:50:03 <maiki>	"Look for" referring to features of the search, not book lists.
21:50:28 <gavinbaker>	but we're all students, so we know just how much interest there is in saving money on textbooks.
21:50:41 <gavinbaker>	we hook 'em with the free and then hit 'em with the Free.
21:50:43 <maiki>	Well, perhaps that could be tacked on to a survey sent out to the chapters or something.
21:51:10 <maiki>	Right, but we are all sitting in IRC, which means easy to us may be a little different to someone else.
21:51:23 <skyfaller>	maiki: I don't think it's easy in any sense of the word right now :)
21:51:27 <gavinbaker>	maiki: it probably wouldn't hurt to try to identify what books people are looking for, but it probably wouldn't help much, either.
21:51:35 <skyfaller>	so we have a ways to go before usability studies are called for
21:51:39 <gavinbaker>	there are already a lot of public domain books online... we just want to make them (a lot) easier to find.
21:51:59 <mllerustad>	maiki: We already have a test run, sort of, with Columbia's flash drive classics curriculum thingie.
21:52:02 <gavinbaker>	and promote this, to make students aware that they don't have to spend $x on that copy of Shakespeare.
21:52:04 <Ax3>	i wonder what wikibooks are looking like these days....
21:52:28 <skyfaller>	Ax3: not usable in most schools yet, unfortunately
21:52:41 <maiki>	Makes sense, and the flash drive is a test run, indeed.
21:52:45 <gavinbaker>	Ax3: i <3 wikibooks, but nobody's assigning wikibooks in class. but people do assign e.g. Moby Dick, which is available for free online, courtesy of the public domain
21:52:47 <Fear_of_C>	gutenberg is pretty good
21:52:52 <Fear_of_C>	I already used it for Kant once
21:52:59 <gavinbaker>	Fear_of_C: right, this is mostly a front-end and promotional campaign for Project Gutenberg.
21:53:13 <skyfaller>	until there are more sources of open access textbooks
21:53:41 <gavinbaker>	just remember that 90% of college students don't know that the public domain exists, let alone that because it exists, they might be able to get Moby Dick for free online.
21:54:25 <gavinbaker>	Columbia said they had success handing out Flash drives with this kind of stuff; we want to scale that
21:54:46 <Ax3>	whoa... so what did you come up with in fundraising again? lol
21:55:16 <Ax3>	i like the idea though
21:55:16 <gavinbaker>	so: 2.) who wants to help? (with identifying databases, writing the API, scripting, developing the UI, promotions)
21:55:39 <gavinbaker>	Ax3: the idea is to use t3h interwebs, rather than hand out Flash Drives Across America. that should make it a bit cheaper.
21:55:47 <Fear_of_C>	2) for the more softwarey tasks, I'm up
21:55:49 *	nile would probably be successful in handing out useful computer peripherals too =D =D
21:56:13 <gavinbaker>	if there are no further volunteers, we'll move on...
21:56:17 <Ax3>	we could load them up with keyloggers and rootkits
21:56:17 <nile>	gavinbaker, I'm definitely interested, but unsure how much time+effort I can dedicate
21:56:50 <Ax3>	what's an open database of articles/texts that already exists
21:57:17 <gavinbaker>	Ax3: Project Gutenberg, www.gutenberg.org. check the wiki page (linked from today's agenda) for more
21:57:26 <maiki>	I would be interested in obtaining book lists and finding the texts to help identify the appropriate online resources. I have experience doing just that. 
21:57:31 <Ax3>	ahh i saw a slashdot about that
21:57:54 <Ax3>	im interested in writing the api but, like nile said, this is a big time committment
21:58:18 <Ax3>	also enjoy UI dev
21:58:21 <gavinbaker>	Ax3: you wouldn't have to everything. that's why we're trying to get lots of volunteers; that way, everyone only does a little!
21:58:36 <Fear_of_C>	so far, there are 3 of us, each with very limited time
21:58:39 <gavinbaker>	maiki: that sounds like a different project, but it might also be worthwhile to know what PD books students are actually assigned.
21:58:51 <nile>	(Soon, the whole *world* will be volunteering - including Steven Colbert!)
21:59:12 <skyfaller>	Fear_of_C: this is almost certainly a job for FC Labs, rather than merely the web team
21:59:16 <gavinbaker>	nile, just sign this online petition.
21:59:17 <Fear_of_C>	agreed
22:01:17 <skyfaller>	I think we should reboot FC Labs
22:01:22 <skyfaller>	which hasn't actually done anything yet
22:01:54 <skyfaller>	heavy development of software that isn't related to FC.o falls into FC Labs territory rather than the web team, even if the software lives on the web
22:01:59 <Fear_of_C>	I was going to mention FC Labs later
22:01:59 <gavinbaker>	skyfaller: this is a job for "volunteers", atm ;)
22:01:59 <gavinbaker>	ok, so i'll assume that's all we're going to hear about this.
22:01:59 <gavinbaker>	p.s. we need a cool name for this project -- add your ideas on the wiki! http://wiki.freeculture.org/Opensearch
22:01:59 <gavinbaker>	alright, next: there's been some work on making an interactive repository for student e-prints and working papers
22:01:59 <gavinbaker>	so, when you write a paper for class, you can upload it to this site
22:01:59 <gavinbaker>	Fear_of_C: maybe we can add that ad-hoc to the end of this agenda, after everything else.
22:01:59 <gavinbaker>	besides uploading papers, people can also annotate them, rate them, etc.
22:01:59 *	mllerustad_ (n=mllerust@c-69-143-179-58.hsd1.va.comcast.net) has joined #freeculture
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22:02:10 <skyfaller>	isn't related => isn't directly related
22:02:19 <Fear_of_C>	yeah I agree
22:02:25 <Fear_of_C>	I did get one swarthmore chapter meeting
22:02:33 <Fear_of_C>	at which some progress was made on OLPC stuff
22:02:38 <nile>	gavinbaker, the project seems interesting, but I don't think it'll ever reach critical mass
22:02:52 *	mllerustad_ is now known as mllerustad
22:03:05 <skyfaller>	Fear_of_C: OLPC stuff?  interesting, we should talk about this at the end of the meeting
22:03:07 <gavinbaker>	nile: i've got some clever ideas about how to get people to use the site. they're on the wiki page for the project, which is linked from today's agenda
22:03:24 <skyfaller>	paulproteus: (psst, how is the chapters database stuff coming along?)
22:03:32 <gavinbaker>	such as, building a turnitin functionality into the site
22:03:36 <paulproteus>	skyfaller, I'm currently reeling from a food coma.
22:03:54 <paulproteus>	I think I should take a nap, tt y'all in a bit.
22:03:55 <gavinbaker>	so professors can tell their students to use the site to "turn in" their papers.
22:04:15 <gavinbaker>	anybody who's ever used turnitin.com knows that professors are suckers for that. and this'll be even better, free, and Free.
22:04:19 <Fear_of_C>	turnitin.com is a touchy issue; a lot of people at swarthmore are quite offended at their papers being used commercially for an anti-cheating service
22:04:37 <gavinbaker>	Fear_of_C: right, that's why this is non-commercial :D
22:04:46 <skyfaller>	and not just for cheating
22:04:52 <Fear_of_C>	gavinbaker: yeah, just don't align this with turnitin.com in any way
22:05:01 <skyfaller>	no, of course we wouldn't
22:05:10 <Ax3>	free \o/
22:05:10 <gavinbaker>	Fear_of_C: i'm not suggesting we hook up with them. i'm suggesting we copy what's good about them
22:05:41 <gavinbaker>	and make it free+open, to make it awesomer.
22:05:52 <gavinbaker>	and build in annotating, etc., to make it awesomer still.
22:06:28 <nile>	gavinbaker, what's good about them? I thought the only purpose was the anti-cheating?
22:06:28 <gavinbaker>	i wrote up a better summary than what's on the wiki, but it's not online. mea culpa. i'll find a place to dump the pdf and link it
22:06:42 <Fear_of_C>	I see very little good about turnitin.com
22:06:43 <gavinbaker>	nile: what's good about them is that professors can use the site for students to turn in their papers.
22:06:56 <Fear_of_C>	it's a copyright violation, it's done without our knowledge, and it's done to work against us
22:06:58 <nile>	ah, okay
22:07:17 <gavinbaker>	it does a timestamp (was it turned in before the deadline?), it does format conversion, it does "better way to deal with papers than having 100 kids email me something"
22:07:21 <Fear_of_C>	there has been talk at swarthmore about whether it is legal for professors to use students' papers in this way without permission
22:07:29 *	[paulproteus] (i=paulprot@29.145.221.202.bf.2iij.net): Asheesh Laroia
22:07:29 *	[paulproteus] #nouveau #olpc #gnash #kmobiletools #freeculture #openmoko #joiito #icommons #cc 
22:07:29 *	[paulproteus] irc.freenode.net :http://freenode.net/
22:07:29 *	[paulproteus] is away (I'm currently away, sorry!)
22:07:29 *	[paulproteus] is identified to services 
22:07:29 *	[paulproteus] idle 00:03:35, signon: Fri Jun 15 04:43:24
22:07:29 *	[paulproteus] End of WHOIS list.
22:07:35 <nile>	gavinbaker, right. cool
22:07:53 <Ax3>	our papers ARE intellectual property are they not?
22:07:55 <gavinbaker>	Fear_of_C: we're not talking about turnitin.com. we're talking about beating them by taking what's useful about the site and making it better and not-evil.
22:08:17 <nile>	gavinbaker, okay, I can see how this could be successful. extra credit + turnitin function are good
22:08:26 <Fear_of_C>	what I am saying is that there is nothing useful about the site for anyone on the student side, and if you mention it in a good light, you are going to burned pretty hard
22:09:06 <gavinbaker>	Fear_of_C: we wouldn't mention turnitin on the student side. it'd be pitching that functionality to profs
22:09:19 <Fear_of_C>	be careful with that too
22:09:30 <gavinbaker>	Fear_of_C: i'm happy to be careful, but we have to build something first.
22:09:38 <nile>	:)
22:09:51 <gavinbaker>	so we've had plenty of commentary from the peanut gallery, i'll skip straight to 2.) who wants to help?
22:09:52 <Fear_of_C>	i would be careful first
22:09:52 *	libervisco has quit ("Leaving")
22:09:58 <Fear_of_C>	there has been mention of suing the school at swarthmore
22:10:14 <nile>	!
22:10:18 <gavinbaker>	Fear_of_C: i'd be awesome first, and you can be careful.
22:10:24 <skyfaller>	I think that the point of this is that it would be not turnitin.com
22:10:26 <Fear_of_C>	someone finds the prof marketing on google, and free culture gets kicked off campus
22:10:51 <gavinbaker>	Fear_of_C: why don't you read the docs on the wiki and talk to me later?
22:11:23 <nile>	skyfaller, s,turnitin(|.com),, when you post the IRC log ;)
22:11:32 <skyfaller>	heh
22:12:14 <Fear_of_C>	gavinbaker: I'd already read the docs on the wiki
22:12:53 <skyfaller>	I think Gavin is saying that turnitin.com has some technical ideas that we can steal to build something not-evi
22:12:55 <skyfaller>	*evil
22:13:14 <skyfaller>	something that isn't primarily about catching cheats, and which is done voluntarily by the students
22:13:16 <gavinbaker>	Fear_of_C: then you know that turnitin-like function is a potential way to make the site useful, not that we'd want to be like them or associate ourselves with them, (except by contrast as being awesome and not-evil).
22:13:18 <nile>	silly misunderstanding
22:13:37 <BrianRowe>	Later, all.  
22:13:42 <skyfaller>	let's move on now
22:13:44 <gavinbaker>	ciao BrianRowe 
22:13:55 *	BrianRowe (n=Brion@71-32-86-114.tukw.qwest.net) has left #freeculture
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22:14:07 <gavinbaker>	last call for anyone interesting in building backend, frontend, or promo on this project?
22:14:28 <Fear_of_C>	again, i'm up for whatever developmenty stuff
22:14:41 <Fear_of_C>	(i think this all kind of links in to fc labs)
22:14:54 <gavinbaker>	Ax3, nile, mllerustad ^^ ?
22:14:55 <mllerustad>	prettiness, depending on schedule.
22:15:20 <nile>	gavinbaker, /me passes on this one for now
22:15:36 <gavinbaker>	paulproteus: do you mind pitching breaktheinter.net next week?
22:15:43 <skyfaller>	I think paulproteus went to sleep
22:15:48 <skyfaller>	so we'll have to wait anyway
22:15:58 <nile>	cute URL =)
22:15:59 <gavinbaker>	oh, we're closing this project for the moment.
22:16:02 <gavinbaker>	(p.s. we still need a cool name -- add your ideas on the wiki! http://wiki.freeculture.org/Swapnotes )
22:16:02 <nile>	domain, rather
22:16:15 <Ax3>	naturally we can't just say we're gonna build an API and dive in head first
22:16:18 <nile>	oh, godammit. squatted
22:16:25 <gavinbaker>	nile: squatted by paulproteus 
22:16:32 <nile>	oh, cool.
22:16:51 <gavinbaker>	Ax3: right, there's plenty to build off of, and interested people would talk about what to do before they started in earnest.
22:17:00 <gavinbaker>	that's why we need to identify interested people, so they can start talking :)
22:17:35 <gavinbaker>	uh, while paulproteus recovers from his food coma, we'll move our discussion of breaktheinter.net to next week
22:17:51 <gavinbaker>	though i think we can say that NBC will definitely be a member of the Break the Internet Coalition!
22:18:39 <gavinbaker>	so, for the last addition to the agenda, Fear_of_C and skyfaller, do you want to talk about Free Culture Labs?
22:18:43 <gavinbaker>	or punt that to next week?
22:19:34 <skyfaller>	I think we might need to punt it to next week, mostly
22:19:38 <Fear_of_C>	ok
22:19:50 <Ax3>	back to my rails work then
22:20:36 <skyfaller>	briefly, the main idea of FC Labs is to have developers working on FC.o projects and related software
22:20:59 <skyfaller>	this open textbooks database is an example of an FC.o project
22:21:07 <Ax3>	gavin, definitely interested, but I agree, we need to see what's already out there, talk about features and functionality, and see where we can improve or even extend.  I'd love a facebook app where I can search for open texts, or maybe a firefox addon :)
22:21:14 <skyfaller>	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gobby  might be an example of related software
22:21:30 <gavinbaker>	cf. Sunlight Foundation, which has their own Sunlight Labs to build cool software/Web apps for stuff that supports Sunlight's mission.
22:21:46 <skyfaller>	it's a collaborative editing tool that I'd like to use in our meetings, as soon as someone can compile a @#$%ing OS X package for it so that it's truly cross-platform
22:22:21 <gavinbaker>	skyfaller: i'd hope that FC Labs would be more about building the code for cool new FC.o projects, and less about packaging Gobby for people who are lame enough not to run Linux ;)
22:22:51 <gavinbaker>	"cool new FC.o projects", e.g. this search tool and repository site we've just been discussing
22:22:54 <skyfaller>	gavinbaker: well, it's about making the organization run smoothly on free software without forcing people to change OS's in order to work with us
22:23:02 <skyfaller>	it should be able to do both
22:23:33 <gavinbaker>	skyfaller: sure, we should be able to print money. but if we have to pick, i'd prioritize building cool new stuff vs. gruntwork to help the organization
22:23:36 <nile>	does Gobby work on Windows?
22:23:42 <skyfaller>	nile: Gobby works everywhere
22:23:58 <skyfaller>	it just doesn't have an OS X package, you have to compile from source and it takes like half a day
22:24:00 <nile>	cool. just not packaged?
22:24:05 *	nile cheers
22:24:30 <gavinbaker>	(looks like we're talking about FC Labs after all ;) )
22:24:32 <skyfaller>	so if someone would package it, then we could make everyone use it for e.g. the bylaws editing meeting
22:24:53 <skyfaller>	it would be really handy to have Gobby ready in time for the bylaws meeting
22:25:06 <Fear_of_C>	yeah
22:25:16 <Fear_of_C>	what I ran into was that everyone already has their own projects
22:25:42 <skyfaller>	sure, and activists are already in their own activist clubs
22:25:46 <Fear_of_C>	so my idea was that we'd try to a) get these people talking to eachother b) teach new people who to code and bring them in
22:25:56 <skyfaller>	OK, that makes sense
22:26:07 <gavinbaker>	developing Columbia's CULATOR to scale (inter)nationally might be another sort of thing that FC Labs could do.
22:26:09 <skyfaller>	but what does a) entail?
22:26:24 <skyfaller>	yeah, CULATOR is definitely something I would think FC Labs should cover
22:26:30 <gavinbaker>	or UF's Free My PC install CD
22:26:32 <Fear_of_C>	I wouldn't try to break all the swarthmore people I know off what they're already doing ... Eric A has got OLPC, another guy built macfusion, etc.
22:26:33 <skyfaller>	and in fact we should talk to their cooders
22:26:36 <skyfaller>	coders
22:26:51 <gavinbaker>	so how should we do this? start with a mailing list?
22:27:02 <skyfaller>	it would be great to get more people working on their project, and get the people working on that project to try working on some of our other projects
22:27:18 <skyfaller>	if everyone only works on one project, their own project, then they won't get much help will they? ;-)
22:27:30 <Fear_of_C>	there are two sides to that coin
22:27:51 <Fear_of_C>	on one side, having everybody collaborate increases resource availability and specialization
22:28:15 <Fear_of_C>	on the other hand, as described in "The Mythical Man-Month", bringing new people into a project can actually slow it down
22:28:41 <skyfaller>	sure, but Nick you can't code everything we need by yourself ;-)
22:28:48 <Fear_of_C>	so trying to introduce everyone as new developers into everyone else's project is not exactly what we should be thinking of doing
22:29:04 <Fear_of_C>	sure, every project should have several people
22:29:12 <skyfaller>	it's up to the individual project manager to ask for people
22:29:15 <skyfaller>	if they need people
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22:29:28 <skyfaller>	I'd be shocked if CULATOR didn't need more developers
22:29:33 <skyfaller>	given that it's only on Mac right now
22:29:45 <skyfaller>	and their software only works on Columbia's network
22:29:57 <Fear_of_C>	I think that has changed somewhat (unstable windows build)
22:29:58 <skyfaller>	they need more developers in order to fix that
22:30:01 <skyfaller>	OK, sure
22:30:07 <skyfaller>	but my point is that they could probably use help
22:30:07 <Fear_of_C>	I'm not saying they don't need more developers
22:30:27 <gavinbaker>	in the long term, we need a more sustainable way of developing projects like this
22:30:32 <Fear_of_C>	just that we need to be aware of how software development works
22:30:33 <gavinbaker>	we know there's interest, we know there are great ideas, but people need help.
22:30:37 <skyfaller>	anyway, let's table this discussion, and get FC Labs going in general
22:30:40 <skyfaller>	so yes, mailing list
22:30:51 <gavinbaker>	any other steps we should take atm?
22:30:58 <skyfaller>	http://freeculture.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/labs
22:31:00 <Fear_of_C>	figure out what we are putting on the mailing list
22:31:20 <gavinbaker>	if you want to help with this kind of stuff, please PM skyfaller and he'll add you -- or join at the link there
22:31:24 <Fear_of_C>	if it's currently just a place for project leaders to call for developers, that's fine, but i feel like there should be more
22:31:49 <gavinbaker>	Fear_of_C: i guess the converse is, a place for developers to advertise that they're willing to help on projects
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22:32:08 <skyfaller>	Fear_of_C: we also talked about setting up website infrastructure
22:32:13 <skyfaller>	Fear_of_C: but you need volunteers to do that
22:32:14 <Fear_of_C>	the one effective thing I managed to do at Swarthmore was organizing a hackathon
22:32:32 <gavinbaker>	FC Labs can be a team, with a leader responsible for keeping track of what's going on + reporting it to the rest of the org
22:33:09 <gavinbaker>	like we've taken TimHwang_ 's fundraising list and sort of turned it into a fundraising team
22:33:36 <skyfaller>	so who in this channel is a programmer who is interested in working on developing FC-related software?
22:33:39 <gavinbaker>	the overall goal is to set up structures that get work done, are resilient, are easy to get involved with, and are accessible to & communicate well with the rest of the org
22:33:46 <TimHwang_>	gavinbaker: i think it could certainly serve that purpose in addition to sharing information
22:34:50 <gavinbaker>	TimHwang_: it's just the difference between coordinated / uncoordinated-distributed ;)
22:36:03 <gavinbaker>	in order for any effort to be useful to the org, it needs to not be silo'ed, but have channels of communication open
22:36:15 <gavinbaker>	otherwise you end up at an annual conference and hear about things for the first time :(
22:37:18 <gavinbaker>	mailing lists are a first step to coordinate effort
22:37:36 <gavinbaker>	from there, you can drop in other tools and social structures, as warranted
22:38:28 <gavinbaker>	in our new volunteer structure that we seem to be building, existing volunteer efforts ("teams") report back regularly to all the volunteers
22:38:52 <gavinbaker>	regularly, e.g. at a weekly meeting, on the volunteers list, etc.
22:39:00 <gavinbaker>	so that's one step better than just a mailing list
22:39:21 <gavinbaker>	Fear_of_C: do you want to be the point person for FC Labs at this time?
22:39:41 <Fear_of_C>	yeah
22:39:58 <Fear_of_C>	I am still up for leading this
22:40:17 <Fear_of_C>	if I am still invited to do so
22:40:46 <gavinbaker>	cool. so Fear_of_C and TimHwang_, fundraising & FC Labs will be written into the agenda for future volunteers meetings, to report back on progress & solicit feedback & recruit volunteers
22:40:59 <gavinbaker>	er... are we doing this weekly? ( skyfaller ? )
22:41:58 <skyfaller>	sure
22:42:02 <skyfaller>	we should do this weekly
22:42:13 <gavinbaker>	day / time...?
22:42:27 <skyfaller>	is 8pm EDT on Sundays good for everyone this summer?
22:42:30 <Fear_of_C>	yeah
22:42:52 <gavinbaker>	seems ok for me
22:42:56 <skyfaller>	then let's keep this time until someone actively objects :)
22:43:06 <gavinbaker>	...everything sound good to everybody?
22:43:15 <Fear_of_C>	anyone else out there?
22:43:29 <skyfaller>	I think people want the meeting to end :)
22:44:03 <nile>	that was a pretty productive meeting. wait, is it over yet?
22:44:18 <gavinbaker>	Fear_of_C: this is why we try to have shorter meetings ;)
22:45:46 <gavinbaker>	IT'S OVER!
22:45:48 <gavinbaker>	...right?
22:45:53 <skyfaller>	TimHwang_: can you make it next Sunday?
22:46:41 <skyfaller>	incidentally, check out this interesting blog post that mentions us somewhat critically: http://icanneverevenevercrawloutofbed.org/?p=10
22:46:53 <skyfaller>	search for freeculture.org in the text of the rant
22:46:58 <gavinbaker>	heh, not the one about selling T-shirts, eh?
22:47:04 <TimHwang_>	skyfaller: might be out of town -- but i'll definitely try to make it
22:47:35 <skyfaller>	TimHwang_: OK, but is this a bad regular time to have the meeting over the summer?
22:48:05 <TimHwang_>	skyfaller: nah, in general, it should be good
22:48:58 <skyfaller>	ok
22:49:01 <skyfaller>	groovy :)
22:54:36 <gavinbaker>	for future reference, we'll refer to the booksearch and student repository ideas as being under the FC Labs umbrella
22:55:14 <gavinbaker>	i'll also float an idea i'd been discussing with paulproteus, about an action alerts system for contacting congress (as opposed to the expensive, proprietary ones that exist)
22:55:50 <gavinbaker>	Labs can investigate that; if none of the solutions available are acceptable, we could consider working on one
22:56:27 <gavinbaker>	conversely, if there is an acceptable solution available, we can bring it to the Net strategy meeting on 2007-08-01 to talk about implementing it.
22:57:03 <skyfaller>	makes sense
22:57:24 <gavinbaker>	skyfaller: will you post to http://wiki.freeculture.org/2007-07-22/log , plz?
22:57:39 <skyfaller>	ok
Meeting minutes and logs

2005-01-02 · 2005-01-03 · 2005-01-04 · 2005-01-06 · 2005-01-08 · 2005-01-12 · 2005-01-16 · 2005-01-19 · 2005-01-22 · 2005-01-23 · 2005-01-25 · 2005-01-26 · 2005-01-28 · 2005-01-30 · 2005-01-31 · 2005-02-02 · 2005-02-06 · 2005-02-13 · 2005-02-20 · 2005-02-27 · 2005-03-02 · 2005-03-06 · 2005-03-13 · 2005-03-16 · 2005-03-20 · 2005-03-23 · 2005-03-27 · 2005-03-30 · 2005-04-03 · 2005-04-10 · 2005-04-17 · 2005-04-24 · 2005-05-01 · 2005-05-08 · 2005-05-15 · 2005-05-22 · 2005-05-29 · 2005-06-01 · 2005-06-05 · 2005-06-06 · 2005-06-10 · 2005-06-12 · 2005-06-15 · 2005-06-15/Chatlog · 2005-06-19 · 2005-06-26 · 2005-07-03 · 2005-07-10 · 2005-07-17 · 2005-07-24 · 2005-07-31 · 2005-08-01 · 2005-08-07 · 2005-08-14 · 2005-08-17 · 2005-08-21 · 2005-08-28 · 2005-09-04 · 2005-09-11 · 2005-09-18 · 2005-09-24 · 2005-10-02 · 2005-10-09 · 2005-10-16 · 2005-10-23 · 2005-10-30 · 2005-11-06 · 2005-11-13 · 2005-11-16 · 2005-11-20 · 2005-11-27 · 2005-12-04 · 2005-12-11 · 2005-12-14 · 2005-12-18 · 2005-12-18 board meeting · 2005-12-21 · 2005-12-21 board meeting · 2005-12-23 board meeting · 2005-12-27 board meeting · 2006-01-01 · 2006-01-02 · 2006-01-07 · 2006-01-09 · 2006-01-22 · 2006-01-25 · 2006-02-12 · 2006-02-13 · 2006-03-02 · 2006-03-15 · 2006-03-22 · 2006-03-26 · 2006-03-29 · 2006-04-02 · 2006-04-09 · 2006-04-26 · 2006-05-07 · 2006-05-12 · 2006-05-14 · 2006-05-17 · 2006-08-16 · 2006-09-13 · 2006-09-17 · 2006-09-17/raw log · 2006-09-20 · 2006-09-20/raw log · 2006-09-27 · 2006-10-18 · 2006-10-18/transcript · 2006-10-25 · 2006-11-01 · 2006-11-08 · 2006-12-06 · 2006-12-06/Log · 2007-01-17 · 2007-01-21 · 2007-01-24 · 2007-02-07 · 2007-02-28 · 2007-02-28/Log · 2007-03-08 · 2007-03-21 · 2007-05-25 · 2007-06-29 · 2007-07-15 · 2007-07-15/log · 2007-07-17 · 2007-07-17/log · 2007-07-22 · 2007-07-22/log · 2007-07-29 · 2007-07-29/log · 2007-08-01 · 2007-08-05 · 2007-08-05/log · 2007-08-07 · 2007-08-07/log · 2007-08-08 · 2007-08-08/log · 2007-08-12 · 2007-08-12/log/bylaws · 2007-08-12/log/tools · 2007-08-14 · 2007-08-14/log · 2007-08-16 · 2007-08-16/log · 2007-09-03 · 2007-09-03/log · 2007-09-05 · 2007-09-05/log · 2007-09-09 · 2007-09-20 · 2007-10-07