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gavinbaker: paulproteus: the channel's all yours

gavinbaker: thanks everybody

e1presidenH 0n=e1presid@216-15-61-221.c3-0.161-ubr3.lnh-161.m David Riordan
e-star H 0 elizabeth
ktetch H 0n=ktetch@adsl-074-166-105-206.sip.asm.bellsouth. K`Tetch
Fear_of_C H 0 gaim
Omnifrog H 0 Omnifrog
mllerustadH 0 Karen Rustad
gavinbakerH 0 Gavin Baker
peabo H 0 Peter Olson
tannewt H 0 n=scott@gentoo/developer/tannewt Unknown
ryanfaermaH 0 Ryan Faerman
jibot H 0 i=andy@ #JoiIto's bot
rohitj H 0 n=rohitj@ Rohit Jain
skyfaller H 0 n=nelson@wikipedia/Skyfaller Nelson Pavlosky
sj_ H 0 SJ
Ax3 H 0 ax4
jli G 0 i=jli@gateway/tor/x-513ed214ca560d4b Jli
ftobia H 0 Frank Tobia
klepas G 0 n=klepas@unaffiliated/klepas Pascal Klein
sahal H 0 can't get enough of that sugarcrisp...
_sj_ H 0 sjk
[autonomy]H 0 auto
poningru H 0 Eldo Varghese
danjared H 0n=danjared@HOW-ABOUT-A-NICE-GAME-OF-CHESS.MIT.ED D. Jared Dominguez
paulproteuG 0 Asheesh Laroia
  1. freeculture End of /WHO list.

skyfaller: paulproteus: lead us forward, web team leader :)

paulproteu: Yeah, hi everyone.

paulproteu: Let me take a sec to pull up the minutes.

Fear_of_C: hi

paulproteu: But the point of this meeting is, like, What tech stuff would make's life easier and better, and the same question for chapters, and what of those nice things can we possibly actually get done?

paulproteu: Say 'hi' if you're participating, preferably.

peabo: hi


paulproteu: I'm calling this meeting at gavinbaker's urging, but there are a few questions I can ask in my own words:

skyfaller: hi

paulproteu: Well, basically, it's what I said above.

skyfaller: brb

paulproteu: I personally feel very conflicted about this meeting, because I feel as though if I could stop being at meetings and use the time fixing things, more stuff would work.

paulproteu: But there's a problem there, which is that what the priorities are needs to be decided by more people.

paulproteu: Anyway, first of all, web team organization.

e-star: (sorry guys, have to run)

paulproteu: Sure, ttyl e-star.

paulproteu: Right now most web-related emails go straight to me, so they're not visible to others / able to be helped with.

Signoff: e-star ()

paulproteu: We used to track issues. Do you guys have feelings on how that's worked?

paulproteu: I know mattl and others are upset that we're using proprietary hosted software.

paulproteu: My feelings are that it's nice that it looks nice, but it's not all that convenient to mass-organize bugs on it (no bug tracking system I've ever seen makes that easy).

paulproteu: Is it actually a useful tool for collaboration, or is it worse than nothing?

paulproteu: This is the part where the rest of you say something, or at least say that you have no remarks on our use of Launchpad.

paulproteu: This is why I don't really like meetings, also.

peabo: (no remarks)

Fear_of_C: people say it's easier than others, but I think it's still non-intuitive to people who are not experienced in bug tracking

Fear_of_C: paulproteus: say something more divisive ;)

gavinbaker: Launchpad is useful

Fear_of_C: also, something that is very confusing about it is what is actually on it

paulproteu: I agree, Fear_of_C. A different sort of bug tracking could be more email-oriented, but in this super-hip web browser-oriented age we're in now, I don't think that would be an improvement.

gavinbaker: I don't like that it's proprietary, but it seems better than e.g. Google Code Hosting or Sourceforge because they've said they'll open it.

paulproteu: Fear_of_C, Ah-hah.

gavinbaker: but that doesn't count for a lot, though; it should be free now

Fear_of_C: the urls gave me the impression that we are using some sort of global trac

paulproteu: Fear_of_C, Meaning, like, "What's germane to file a bug about?".

peabo: how about gnats? It has an e-mail option and a Web option (I haven't used the e-mail option)

Fear_of_C: well more like "what should I put in the description"

Fear_of_C: I don't think that emailing the bug reports makes it automatically easier

Fear_of_C: basically, it assumes you know what a "bug" is, what a "report" should include, and what fields each of these go into

gavinbaker: paulproteus: re: your earlier comment, you don't *have* to be at meetings. but if you're a team leader, you do. you're welcome to just help on stuff and not run the team. but this work is more than one person can handle, so we need a team, and ergo we need a leader. doesn't have to be paulproteus but it has to be someone

Fear_of_C: the 1st time I used it, I thought I'd screwed up because it didn't let me attach an image in the body

paulproteu: gavinbaker, Yes, right. I would very much like not to be this team leader, but I'll keep doing it until someone else wants it just because it needs to be done. That's how I got it in the first place.

Fear_of_C: and I also almost got out of the "Free Culture" section of the site and filed a bug against something else

paulproteu: Fear_of_C, Hah. (-:

skyfaller: back

paulproteu: Did you eventually get over those hurdles / can we soften the impact of those issues somehow?

gavinbaker has set the topic on channel #freeculture to students for free culture | | Bug tracker: | In case of downtime: | Bylaws RC2 meeting, 2007-08-14 at 6 pm EDT: | Meeting to discuss communication/collaboration tools for FC.o, today at 5 pm EDT:

paulproteu: I doubt that e.g. gnats would actually be easier.

Fear_of_C: I mean, they didn't stop me in the end

gavinbaker: paulproteus: i think having that "intro the web team" (that we agreed would be useful, and should be made) would be useful

Fear_of_C: it would help to explain that the entire trac site is not part of fc.o

gavinbaker: not everyone may be as persistent as Fear_of_C ... others may give up (or file really useless bug reports because they don't know what they're doing)

paulproteu: Fear_of_C, Good point.

paulproteu: gavinbaker, Yeah, I was talking to Parker about making that.

paulproteu: But he hasn't been around much lately / done it

skyfaller: yeah, he's in Europe

peabo: no reason why you have to use global trac though, I run one on my machine at work what is local, and it was not hard to install

paulproteu: peabo, The problem is that In Case of Emergency, we wanted the bug tracker to work.

Fear_of_C: global track is good if we need it when our servers our down

Fear_of_C: we just need to be clear that it is global

paulproteu: (BTW, doesn't run the software called Trac, but it is similar in some ways.)

gavinbaker: as previously mentioned, if you host your own trac, then your site has to not go down.

Fear_of_C: the only other solution, I think, is redundancy

paulproteu: gavinbaker, Or we could settle on, "Our site runs our Trac, but the status blog is for emergencies but that's all we can do in case of emergency".

Fear_of_C: which is something to consider when we are big and have servers all over the world

peabo: are we considering colo ? do you run all the fc.o servers out of a compus location somewhere?

gavinbaker: paulproteus: that might be an acceptable solution

gavinbaker: this is OT, but chapters re-reg needs to open /soon/

Fear_of_C: paulproteus: that would probably work too

Fear_of_C: so the quickest solution, probably, is to just document the quirks of trac

paulproteu: Just to be clear, the way things are right now, the fc.o server is a virtual server on a personal machine that belongs to me and some friends that is co-located in Joi's Lab in Japan.

paulproteu: Fear_of_C, You mean, the quirks of Launchpad?

Fear_of_C: possibly

peabo: so the Service Level Agreement is in Japanese :-) :-)

Fear_of_C: one of the quirks being the global hosting

paulproteu: To be clear, does not run the software called Trac, and that "ticket tracking" is an idea that is broader than either the Trac software or

paulproteu: Fear_of_C, That does make sense to document it. I don't mean to punish you for suggesting it, but are you interested in doing that maybe?

Fear_of_C: I am still not clear on what exactly we have set up

paulproteu: Hmm, okay.

paulproteu: There's a service run by Canonical, Incorporated, called

Fear_of_C: I could write some things, but given that I still don't know whether we are running track or on launchpad...

paulproteu: It doesn't run on our servers but instead ones run by Canonical.

Fear_of_C: is Trac involved at all?

paulproteu: No.

Fear_of_C: ok, then I was just confused

skyfaller: Fear_of_C can take dictation from paulproteus ;-)

paulproteu: Okay. (-:

Fear_of_C: it makes a lot more sense now

paulproteu: Well, that's good!

Fear_of_C: where should I be putting this?

skyfaller: of course, since we're in IRC, speaking already happens in text ;-)

paulproteu: Fear_of_C, That's a good question, and one I was hoping you could answer.

Fear_of_C: well, the obvious answer is to start a wiki page

Fear_of_C: can we link to it form launchpad?

paulproteu: In some places you can, yeah.

cskaterun ( has joined channel #freeculture

gavinbaker: just to be clear, i was hoping this meeting would be more about "what tech does the FC.o need"

gavinbaker: but if, for now, it's only a meta-web team meeting, i guess that's progress

Fear_of_C: in general, I think there should be a library of our protocols, linkable from other places, and that this is part of that library

Fear_of_C: it would explain things like how to file a bug, post to our blog, etc.

gavinbaker: but at some point, we have to decide what stuff would be useful to the Org

paulproteu: Fear_of_C, I think that makes sense, yeah.

Fear_of_C: gavinbaker: methinks we shall get to that

paulproteu: I'm willing to table the meta-web discussion for now and think about more organizational stuff.

paulproteu: In that case, let more organizational people speak, and we'll talk.

e1presidente has left channel #freeculture

paulproteu: I'm talking about what I know / see.

paulproteus stabs gavinbaker and skyfaller

paulproteu: s/stabs/pokes gently, very gently/

gavinbaker: paulproteus: well, Launchpad might be about more than the Web Team

gavinbaker: that's something to discuss

skyfaller: well, there are a few things on my wishlist...

paulproteu: What are the needs?

gavinbaker: is not just how the Web Team should do work, but how the Org should do work

paulproteu: Let's prioritize those.

skyfaller: some of them are existing web team bugs

gavinbaker: for starters, we could look at the open bugs on launchpad.

skyfaller: which I guess makes them more urgent than wishlist

skyfaller: but yeah

gavinbaker: there are 2 items on Critical, besides the chapter re-reg

gavinbaker: 1. OTRS

gavinbaker: 2. CGI::IRC

skyfaller: yeah, those are importnat

skyfaller: *important

gavinbaker: paulproteus, i think your hope was to have a hosted CGI::IRC before the meetings today.

paulproteu: gavinbaker, Yes, that's right. I guess I didn't get to it. )-:

gavinbaker: to be clear, by "OTRS" i mean "some kind of ticket-tracking system"

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peabo: the other is Web access to IRC?

skyfaller: yes

paulproteu: Right, which we've had on and off but with varying success.

gavinbaker: paulproteus: here's a question for you. what would help /you/ be more effective at getting things done on schedule? surely, whatever will help you will be useful to others, too

peabo: home-grown or somebody's package?

paulproteu: peabo, OTRS is someone's package, and that's one we hear good things about.

skyfaller: peabo: CGI::IRC is a specific package

gavinbaker: to be clear, Web access to IRC = CGI::IRC

gavinbaker: so let's talk about these 2 things.

paulproteu: gavinbaker, Well, certainty on what needs to be done, I guess, and more time to do it.

gavinbaker: paulproteus: noted, let's come back to that

gavinbaker: re: CGI::IRC, is everyone agreed that it's desirable?

paulproteus asks people who don't have IRC clients

paulproteu: Yes, they say.

gavinbaker: specifically that we should host one, rather than pointing to somebody else's? (which sadly seem to go down with some frequency)

paulproteu: gavinbaker, Let me interject here.

paulproteu: I run one for that has been very successful and stable.

skyfaller: O RLY?

paulproteu: The one on the fco vserver hasn't been, and no one knows why.

gavinbaker: you know, parker said he was interested in coming but wouldn't have an irc client :-/

paulproteu: gavinbaker, Oh, good point.

paulproteu: Okay if I piggyback on the ACM one?

skyfaller: no one knows why? that's kind of disturbing

skyfaller: what does that say about our vserver?

gavinbaker: paulproteus: has there been CGI::IRC @ before? i wasn't aware, i thought we were always pointing to someone else's

skyfaller: there was

paulproteu: skyfaller will recall that we used to have one for a while but it got disconnected and stuff.

skyfaller: it would sometimes return nothing but a blank page

skyfaller: stuff like that

paulproteu: skyfaller, Maybe it says things about NAT gateways and long-running connections with high latency instead.

gavinbaker: paulproteus: i.e. japan?

paulproteu: Right.

peabo: running from .jp can't be helping either

paulproteus chuckles

skyfaller: so our vserver probably works fine for people IRC-ing from Japan?

gavinbaker: paulproteus: looking at my email headers, i got curious when i noticed it came through, but then realized it's because the message was to

gavinbaker: i was like, whoa, it's really weird that my traffic routes through asheesh's box

paulproteu: Basically, we could fix ours and spend hours more debugging it, or just use the one which I also control and has worked well.

paulproteu: Any objection?

paulproteu: To the latter, that is.

Fear_of_C: I think using the established is better

Fear_of_C: so agreed for the latter

skyfaller: I'm fine with using an established, stable setup that we control

skyfaller: I just want to make sure that I know who is responsible when it goes down ;-)

paulproteu: Well, "fc.o" doesn't control it, I do.

skyfaller: same difference, we are one!

gavinbaker: paulproteus: ideally, "fc.o" would control it

paulproteu: Sure, but until then I'll settle for one that works.

gavinbaker: and i hope that, in the future, JHU ACM doesn't decide to kill the box or whatever

skyfaller: we are one with the free culture force!

peabo: what about solving the .jp / service problem by moving to a small business type colo?

paulproteu: skyfaller++

paulproteu: peabo, Only problem is it would take more money.

gavinbaker: but for now we might point people to acm.jhu and worry about having our own in the future.

skyfaller: I'm happy with the ACM one as long as it remains stable

peabo: not necessarily a lot of money though

paulproteu: RESOLUTION?: gavinbaker will update the CGI::IRC ticket saying we'll point to the ACM one.

Fear_of_C: I'd say use what we have now, and repeat effort only if there is a reason

Fear_of_C: so the ACM one wins in my opinion

Fear_of_C: so ++ to the resolution

paulproteu: RESOLVED, then.

skyfaller: I'll just become unhappy and demand that we install our own again if the ACM one starts acting up

paulproteu: The OTRS stuff is a bigger question.

gavinbaker: i'm fine with it, though not happy that i'm the one to update the bug.

gavinbaker: (you all know how to use Lunchpad, right? :D )

paulproteu: I'll update it, okay.

gavinbaker: re: OTRS, i think the original idea was to help people who are checking the same inbox

paulproteu: gavinbaker, skyfaller, talk to me about why you want e.g. OTRS, what it would help you do, and what email addresses you want it running for.

gavinbaker: or was the idea to replace our mailboxes with a ticket system? i don't know.

paulproteu: Well, you organizational guys have to help me out.

gavinbaker: skyfaller seems to have passed out on the table.

paulproteu: I'm just a tech monkey for hire.

peabo: FSF has a system they use for everything ... I'm supposed to see them this week, I could ask about it

gavinbaker: well, i was hoping more people would be here, but we can wing it.

gavinbaker: FSF seems to be relatively good about replying to emails

paulproteu: Theirs is RT, I think, peabo.

gavinbaker: relative to other organizations

peabo: yes, that's it

paulproteu: RT is difficult to configure but very powerful.

Signoff: Fear_of_C (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))

paulproteu: I maintain one at

paulproteu: Though I'll be maintaining it less and less now that I've graduated.

Fear_of_C ( has joined channel #freeculture

paulproteu: If someone just tells me what email addresses they want OTRSified, I can, like, just do that.

paulproteu: Also, last night I was working on the OpenID server that I think we desperately need as we expand our web app reliance.

gavinbaker: that's a good point.

Fear_of_C: sorry, my internets just rebooted

gavinbaker: i care less about OpenID than about single-login FC.o-wide

gavinbaker: if it's portable beyond FC.o, that's just a bonus

gavinbaker: going back to OTRS, though

paulproteu: gavinbaker, Me, too.

Fear_of_C: when we are talking about OTRSified email addresses, are we sending tickets to emails, or putting emailed tickets on the web?

gavinbaker: as i was saying, the original idea, afaik, was to OTRS-ify boxes like, our main inbox

gavinbaker: yeah, paulproteus, if you could clarify re: Fear_of_C's question, that'd be useful for me.

gavinbaker: but continuing what i was saying, as with Launchpad, we should consider whether we want OTRS beyond just inboxes

paulproteu: Fear_of_C, The idea is that inbound emails cause tickets in a "queue", and that people who subscribe to a particular "queue" log in on the web and see the new events in that queue.

gavinbaker: i.e. i'm suggesting we consider some kind of organization-wide task management system(s)

Fear_of_C: paulproteus: ok

Fear_of_C: near the bottom of the agenda, I added some thoughts on that subject

paulproteu: The system running the queue can also email people who are subscribed to the queue.

Fear_of_C: that we should have a "task checkout" system

paulproteu: Right, and I grow very tired of all these system-picking discussions that never finish.

Fear_of_C: paulproteus: I wouldn't want to send events all over people's emails every time somethings happens

Fear_of_C: I filed one goddamned bug report for compiz

Fear_of_C: and I still get like 10 emails a week whenever someone files a duplicate

paulproteu: Fear_of_C, You can configure in these systems what types of events cause you to get emailed.

mark007: Curses. I lost power for several hours...

gavinbaker: paulproteus: in launchpad, it's actually pretty annoying to do that

gavinbaker: at least, i've looked extensively and can't find that shit.

Fear_of_C: pauproteus: yeah, if it floods your inbox, people will just spamblock it

gavinbaker: if i can't, i'm guessing a lot of people can't

Fear_of_C: if they can't find the way to turn it off

paulproteu: Yes, agreed, gavinbaker.

gavinbaker: paulproteus: or ignore them altogether, which isn't useful

paulproteu: gavinbaker, Yeah.

paulproteu: So let's see how you all like

gavinbaker: paulproteus: so is OTRS just for dealing with email / "tickets"?

paulproteu: gavinbaker, It's for dealing with tickets. Emails can generate tickets. What does "just" mean?

paulproteu: looks easy enough.

gavinbaker: i mean, it's for dealing with external contacts.

gavinbaker: not e.g. for organizing internal collaboration

paulproteu: As a tool, it can also be used for internal stuff.

paulproteu: Quick, someone discuss the pros and cons of that.

Fear_of_C: if we have something for long term projects

paulproteu: I think we should try it for external stuff and see if we like it.

Fear_of_C: I still think that we will want a checkout system

gavinbaker: paulproteus: you're the one who seems to be familiar with OTRS, here

Fear_of_C: where people can mark "I've started working on it"

gavinbaker: i'm with Fear_of_C. whether we use OTRS or not, we want a task management system

Fear_of_C: or "I have half finished this task but can't continue alone"

paulproteu: I distrust meetings' ability to make decisions like that, and I trust experience's ability to make decisions like that.

gavinbaker: paulproteus: look, none of us know what the fuck this package does, so tell us whether it'd be good for this.

paulproteu: I wish mindspillage were here.

paulproteu: gavinbaker, That's why I linked you to the demo.

Fear_of_C: it looks like a customer support thing to me

gavinbaker: paulproteus: it's going to make me a lot longer to develop an opinion than it will for you to tell me yours.

Signoff: cskaterun (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))

Fear_of_C: probably more useful as for tracking received emails, complaints, etc.

gavinbaker: Fear_of_C's impression is mine, too. that's why i'm asking

gavinbaker: whether this is recommendable as a task management system for the Org

Fear_of_C: but not meant for project management

Fear_of_C: I'd use it for handling incoming things, but not projects

Fear_of_C: though it does have ticket locking

paulproteu: I don't remember what Wikimedia does - just incoming, or also projects?

Fear_of_C: and status, which might make it an ok task tracker

gavinbaker: paulproteus: tell us about the features OTRS has that could be useful for project management, and how they compare to other systems

paulproteu: I'm reading about them now.


gavinbaker: one thing i'll say immediately is that it's less pretty, and maybe less obvious, than Launchpad

Fear_of_C: Ticket locking Ticket replies (standard responses)

Fear_of_C: these are important to me

Fear_of_C: also Ticket history, evolution of ticket status and actions taken on ticket

Fear_of_C: all of which are on the features page, so that looks good

Fear_of_C: the main thing, I think

Fear_of_C: is that it replace IRC/email for assignments

peabo: search for tickets that are stuck in some way? (not assigned, no progress?)

paulproteu: "lock timeouts"

paulproteu: I really like that feature.

gavinbaker: while people are reviewing, maybe it'd be useful to discuss the pro/con of a task management system, and we look for in it.

Fear_of_C: because right now, when something needs to get done, I feel like it gets put on launchpad, mentioned in IRC, someone doesn't do it, then it takes weeks for the next IRC meeting that they have not done it, it gets maybe re-assigned, etc.

paulproteu: really really. The idea is that someone tells me he'll do something by $date, and the system notifies me on $date when he didn't, and then I just do it.

gavinbaker: obviously, the system should be FOSS, stable, and relatively easy to setup & maintain.

Fear_of_C: paulproteus: yes, that is what I was hoping for

skyfaller: are we suggesting using OTRS to replace Launchpad for the webteam?

paulproteu: Well, we're considering generally what it might be like for project tracking in general.

gavinbaker: skyfaller: we're talking about using OTRS for project management for the whole Org

gavinbaker: one pro to using a task management system would be that, theoretically, it'll be easier to manage tasks (might want to specify what we mean by that).

paulproteu: I think that it looks pretty good for this, and I think that if we tried it for freedom@ we'd get a better sense of that.

gavinbaker: one con is that it's a new system for users to learn, another login, etc.

Fear_of_C: I'd be up for this, I think

skyfaller: I definitely support an org-wide task management system

Fear_of_C: I would be very much up for a task management system

skyfaller: (just not sure that we want to mess with Launchpad for the web team if it's working, but yeah)

Fear_of_C: it would make things a lot easier than "talk to person x at IRC chat during day d..."

Fear_of_C: for people who want to volunteer

paulproteu: Hmm, okay.

paulproteu: There's no indication that it currently supports OpenID, which is what I was thinking of using for central login.

peabo: would chapters be able to use this as subdomains as well, for their own local activities?

paulproteu: Not by default, no.

paulproteu: What's the priority order here? Central login on the OTRS vs. having it?

peabo: I'm thinking that if we select a system which convinces us of its usefullness, it could ease the adoption by chapters too, a sort of recommendation

   ktetch: OTRS = great

paulproteu: peabo, We certainly can try that.

paulproteu: Once we know we like it and so forth.

peabo: yeah, once we know

Fear_of_C: the other big thing will be marketing/adoption

skyfaller: we should get a test system up that *someone* can use

gavinbaker: it's more important to have task management than for the system to support single login.

paulproteu: RESOLVED?: Use OTRS for as a demo to see how we like it.

Fear_of_C: people have to start using this for serious for it to become useful

Fear_of_C: ++

gavinbaker: but yes, chapters should be able to use this system for project management, too.

skyfaller: so we can see how much energy we want to invest in it

skyfaller: paulproteus: yeah, that sounds good

gavinbaker: paulproteus: i don't like that resolution

skyfaller: ORLY?

paulproteu: gavinbaker, Tell me more.

gavinbaker: because we don't want to test OTRS for email management

gavinbaker: we want to test it for project management

gavinbaker: i'd much prefer something like "Use OTRS for FC Labs as a demo"

paulproteu: gavinbaker, Let me explain.

skyfaller: well, we also wanted something for e-mail management

gavinbaker: we're already relatively sure that this will be progress for managing our email

paulproteu: We can try using it for and toy with the projecty features there.

gavinbaker: paulproteus: you're assuming that people will play with features they don't have to use.

gavinbaker: that's a bad assumption.

paulproteu: No, I'm not assuming.

paulproteu: I'm saying that's what we agree to do.

gavinbaker: paulproteus: ok, so what projects are we going to use these projecty features on?

gavinbaker: i'm saying, let's be clear.

paulproteu: Sure.

gavinbaker: otherwise it'll never happen

paulproteu: Well, I guess FC Labs is okay for this too.

paulproteu: Wel, I dunno.

paulproteu: FC Labs doesn't have a history of people working on stuff to build upon.

Fear_of_C: yeah, I think we can try it for labs

gavinbaker: who's doing work? put them on OTRS.

paulproteu: Do we have some ongoing projecty thing that we can try for this that isn't FC Labs (not that I'm against FC labs doing this, too, I just think it's not a good sole example)?

paulproteu: skyfaller, What things happen?

paulproteu: The Presidential thing happened.

Fear_of_C: yeah, labs is not going to have much getting filed at the moment

Fear_of_C: though it could use something like this to make that happen

paulproteu: What tasks other than web team stuff get assigned?

paulproteu: gavinbaker, I know.

paulproteu: The bylaws.

skyfaller: lol

paulproteu: But if you don't want to throw this monkey wrench in there, that's fine.

paulproteu: Someone name me another class of events that both happen and get assigned.

gavinbaker: yeah -- no

gavinbaker: paulproteus: the bylaws didn't really get assigned

gavinbaker: s/didn't/don't

Fear_of_C: what else are we building?

Fear_of_C: the CGI IRC?

paulproteu: Well, e-star said she'd talk to Mako. Whatever, I'm not dead-set on that.

Fear_of_C: a guide to using launchpad?

Fear_of_C: put all that stuff on this

paulproteu: Someone name me a class of events that both happen and get assigned that isn't web team. Or we can just switch web team now, but that's a bother, and I thought we wanted a demo first.

gavinbaker: we could just pick a few tasks, assign them to use OTRS, and put someone in charge.

paulproteu: gavinbaker, a few web team tasks, or non-web tasks?

gavinbaker: paulproteus: "switching" the web team seems a bit theoretically, because the web team doesn't seem to be doing much.

Fear_of_C: the new chapters database? or is that pure web?

gavinbaker: paulproteus: maybe some of both, it doesn't matter really

gavinbaker: all that matters is that someone is assigned to manage these tasks

Fear_of_C: what about events?

Fear_of_C: anything happening soon?

gavinbaker: Fear_of_C: no

gavinbaker: the other benefit to this ad-hoc approach is that it's easily extensible

gavinbaker: if we're just using the demo for "whatever", then if it's good, it's easy to add more.

paulproteu: Oh, right, you stop calling them 'web team' things and start calling them 'things'.

paulproteu: I like that some.

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Fear_of_C: it sounds a little strange to me if the only major source of tasks we have right now is the website

gavinbaker: rather than trying to partition everything into teams or something, and migrate one team at a time

paulproteu: Fear_of_C, I agree entirely.

gavinbaker: Fear_of_C: we have a lot of tasks, but nobody doing them

paulproteu: But that's another story....

gavinbaker: that makes them very hypothetical tasks

paulproteu: gavinbaker, Can you name some such hypothetical non-web tasks?

gavinbaker: and it discourages more tasks from coming up, because there's a big queue of undone, (undefined, unassigned) tasks

gavinbaker: paulproteus: we could start with some of the launchpad bugs for stuff that's not really Internet team work.

gavinbaker: like fixing up some of the content on the Web site

paulproteu: Oh, sweet.

paulproteu: That would make my day.

gavinbaker: basically, any of the stuff on the agenda from the last volunteers meeting.

paulproteu: I have wanted to get that stuff off the web team tracker for ages.

paulproteu: gavinbaker, Okay, web site content updates will be OTRS'd too.


gavinbaker: i'm not comfortable with assigning everything on that list, but at least some of those i'm comfortable with unilaterally deciding "we're doing this" and we can go ahead and assign someone to it.

gavinbaker: the stuff that i'd been doing on the side, i'll migrate to OTRS

gavinbaker: the inbox maintainers can start using it for that

gavinbaker: the Internet team documentation tasks can be put on OTRS

gavinbaker: sound like a good start?

paulproteu: That sounds like a good start indeed.

gavinbaker: so there's an important part not yet done

gavinbaker: that someone should be responsible for any of the tasks we're putting on OTRS

gavinbaker: obviously, the stuff i've been doing, i'll be in charge of

paulproteu: This is the ED's job I guess.

paulproteu: Or the Volunteer Coordinator or something.

gavinbaker: but the Web site content, the Internet team documentation, mailbox maintenance, and the stuff from the volunteers meeting, nobody's in charge of that

gavinbaker: paulproteus: right, but there's no Coordinator at the moment

paulproteu: P.S. If you make the Volunteer Coordinator coordinate volunteers and stop having a web team leader, then I can just do my work, which would be great.

Signoff: ryanfaerman ()

paulproteu: Mailbox maintenance it seemed skyfaller was/is in charge of, strongly sub-delegated to e-star, last I heard.

skyfaller: something like that

gavinbaker: it would be great to define exactly who's doing what in this Org, all discussions of OTRS aside.

gavinbaker: though i guess, if we migrate fully, all our tasks will be there, and we'll be able to see who's job it is and if they're doing it.

paulproteu: Should we integrate OTRS "new ticket" (except the inboxes) and the volunteers@fc.o list?

paulproteu: Then we can try to see if people on volunteers want to do some of these things.

gavinbaker: is anybody else concerned that the learning curve for OTRS might be higher than e.g. Launchpad?

paulproteu: Oh, good point.

paulproteu: ktetch, Any comments on that?

paulproteu: Non-geeks + OTRS?

Fear_of_C: gavinbaker: not too concerned

skyfaller: I've never used OTRS

Fear_of_C: gavinbaker: I don't think Launchpad was all that more intuitive than anything else

skyfaller: I do think we should get a test install up before we seriously migrate tasks there...

skyfaller: but I'm fine with whatever people want to do

paulproteu: Okay, well step 1: freedom@, step 2: volunteers stuff, then?

paulproteu: Oh, um, insert monkey wrench:

gavinbaker: right, i wasn't suggesting we migrate before we demo.

gavinbaker: activeCollab looks like Trac.

paulproteu: It really looks like BaseCamp more.

paulproteu: Which back in the 1970s skyfaller was really into.

Fear_of_C: ugh.... there's too many of these damned things

paulproteu: Although I wasn't.

skyfaller: I'm actually not conviced that OTRS is a good task managment system, I guess we'll find out... I am convinced that it may be a good e-mail management system

Fear_of_C: we are gonna have to get something set up to review and compare

gavinbaker: I despised BaseCamp

skyfaller: lol

peabo: activecollab seems to be in alpha right now

skyfaller: web 2.0 people seem to like Basecamp, but I dunno

gavinbaker: i'm with Fear_of_C, the best bet seems to be to demo.

Fear_of_C: isn't Basecamp proprietary?

gavinbaker: isn't BaseCamp not even $free, let alone freedom-free?

Fear_of_C: or am I confusing things yet again?

gavinbaker: it's like $free for a crippleware version.

paulproteu: gavinbaker and Fear_of_C are right re: BaseCamp.

paulproteu: ActiveCollab is a GPLware Free BaseCamp clone.


gavinbaker: there you go.

gavinbaker: though, frankly, OTRS and Launchpad aren't on here, which makes me wonder how thorough it is.

paulproteu: RESOLVED?: We try OTRS for freedom@ and see if it's intuitive enough or something.

paulproteu: RESOLVED?: We use this experience to see if we want to use it for general volunteers project management.

skyfaller: sounds good to me

gavinbaker: is there some better approach than stabbing in the dark?

gavinbaker: like, maybe we could make a wiki page and review there?

paulproteu: Well, ktetch and mindspillage recommend OTRS.

Fear_of_C: well, we could do an actual review of the features or each

Fear_of_C: and decide, based on that, the most likely candidates to try

paulproteu: If we're stuck with good software and there exists better software, then I think I'm okay with that.

gavinbaker: what if we start testing OTRS, and simultaneously document on the wiki.

gavinbaker: which will be useful if we end up not liking OTRS

gavinbaker: we can use OTRS to manage the documentation.

paulproteu: Sounds fine to me.

Fear_of_C: also, I think it would be a major improvement to get something set up

paulproteu: Fear_of_C++

paulproteus is afraid of C++, now that I think about it

Fear_of_C: even if it is not perfect

Fear_of_C: paulproteus++

peabo: I have shot myself in the foot many times with C++

paulproteu: RESOLVED?: We try OTRS for freedom@ and see if it's intuitive enough or something. We also document how we like it and how it works as we use it.

paulproteu: RESOLVED?: We use this experience to see if we want to use it for general volunteers project management.

Fear_of_C: cool

gavinbaker: why are we using freedom@ as the demo?

gavinbaker: didn't we just identify some better stuff to test it on?

paulproteu: Because it really needs help right away.

paulproteu: gavinbaker, I thought we identified stuff that we would use it for in stage 2.

paulproteu: Assuming we decide that it's not total junk in stage 1.

gavinbaker: well, frankly i don't see OTRS helping with freedom@ unless other people get involved.

Fear_of_C: let's try it for all those things

gavinbaker: paulproteus: i was suggesting we try those things in stage 1

Fear_of_C: I think people will find it easier to get involved if there is a good queue

gavinbaker: i suppose, with OTRS, it'll be easier for other people to help out with freedom@

gavinbaker: but if it's just skyfaller and e-star, OTRS won't help much

gavinbaker: i'm assuming that skyfaller doesn't even look at the box.

Fear_of_C: I think part of the problem with freedom@ is that a) people don't know about it, b) when someone feels like helping, they have to find skyfaller and e-star

skyfaller: I do look at the box, I just haven't replied very frequently ;-)

gavinbaker: if that assumption's wrong, i'm pretty sure he never replies to anything that comes in.

Fear_of_C: I think people would help if they could just do it on a whim

paulproteu: Fear_of_C, I think I agree.

gavinbaker: Fear_of_C: since this is somewhat sensitive, you need at least a little oversight.

Fear_of_C: not decide 3 weeks before, volunteer on irc, get assigned something, realize they don't have that timeslot, try to correct mixup on irc later

Fear_of_C: I'm not saying there won't still be oversight or assigment

gavinbaker: (what you have coming out of your official email is important to keep on-message.)

skyfaller: I think that our e-mail inboxes should require a similar amount of oversight as our blog does

gavinbaker: Fear_of_C: i'm saying there's not *currently* enough oversight for this to expand

skyfaller: when you're responding to our e-mail, you're representing the org, perhaps less publicly but still

Fear_of_C: that's a separate problem then

gavinbaker: skyfaller or e-star would basically need to oversee whoever volunteered to help

paulproteu: RESOLVED?: We try OTRS for freedom@ and see if it's intuitive enough or something. We also document how we like it and how it works as we use it. At the same time, we try it for Gavin Baker's side stuff, and the Internet team documentation stuff as a test to see about using it for all volunteer management.

gavinbaker: and i don't think it's a good assumption that either of them want to

Fear_of_C: the solution to not having enough oversight in something is not to technologically criple it so that it stops mattering

gavinbaker: or that there's someone else to do it

paulproteu: I'd do it.

gavinbaker: Fear_of_C: no, not using OTRS is not a solution to lack of volunteers. but using OTRS is not a solution to lack of volunteers, either

Fear_of_C: gavinbaker: I'm not saying that it is

Fear_of_C: what I am saying is that if something's broken

Fear_of_C: we shouldn't be covering it up with a bigger problem

paulproteu: I mean, if people wanted to help out with freedom@, then I'd help sanity-check replies.

gavinbaker: i would do it, if it wasn't trying to extricate myself from the Org

paulproteu: Any remarks on my RESOLVED??

gavinbaker: Fear_of_C: on a practical level, i still don't think using OTRS for freedom@ will make much difference atm.

gavinbaker: that's why i'd rather test it on other tasks

Fear_of_C: well, then let's resolve to do this once the blocking issue is fixed

gavinbaker: where there's not such a bottleneck

Fear_of_C: I am up for testing it on other tasks as well

gavinbaker: i mean, i suppose the question is whether skyfaller or e-star will find OTRS useful

paulproteu: Hi, everyone. Do we agree on what I asked?

gavinbaker: even if it's just the two of them.

paulproteu: I think we do, and we're still talking about it despite that, which is why I'm asking.

skyfaller: I do think OTRS will be useful, if Asheesh and I are willing to oversee e-mail

skyfaller: *will be useful for e-mail

gavinbaker: if that's the case, then paulproteus's RESOLVED is just fine.

Fear_of_C: ok, resolved

paulproteu: Then I feel resolution and will play a song by that title.

skyfaller: I don't expect it to take long for me to figure out whether I like OTRS or not for e-mail management

gavinbaker: paulproteus: talk to me about CGI::IRC

gavinbaker: when can we close the bug?

paulproteu: gavinbaker, Now?

paulproteu: Well, let's finish this meeting first!

Fear_of_C: gavinbaker: we just talked about that for a while

paulproteu: Is there anything else to consider?

Fear_of_C: well, I had another suggestion

gavinbaker: i'm trying to prioritize other stuff.

Fear_of_C: which is that we have a place for established protocols

paulproteu: Fire away.

paulproteu: Right.

gavinbaker: CGI::IRC isn't just a web team task, it's a collaboration tool, so it's germane to this meeting

paulproteu: We could make that live on the wiki and e.g. customize the sidebar so it's obvious.

skyfaller: well, if we're talking about general technology, I'm still VERY interested in a Gobby OS X package so that we can promote its use within the org

Fear_of_C: things like how to write a blog post, conventions (such as fc.o vs. vs.

paulproteu: skyfaller, Yes, I am too, and I might have an OS X machine at work to play with soon.

gavinbaker: Fear_of_C: right, that's the wiki

gavinbaker: and we're going to be using OTRS to coordinate the writing of that stuff

gavinbaker: is what i think we just decided.

Fear_of_C: gavinbaker: the fact that a wiki exists

Fear_of_C: does not mean it is doing that

Fear_of_C: we need to actually link to that section

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Fear_of_C: in the places where it matters

paulproteu: Fear_of_C, Can we agree to take that discussion to OTRS?

gavinbaker: Fear_of_C: that's why we're using OTRS to develop it.

Fear_of_C: ok

gavinbaker: i know full well that the wikimonster doesn't make stuff happen

gavinbaker: that's why i wanted task-management system

gavinbaker: now we have one, and we're going to use it to document stuff on the wiki.

Signoff: ryanfaerman (Client Quit)

gavinbaker: Fear_of_C: there's another problem in establishing these protocols in that there's nobody with the authority to establish them.

gavinbaker: but that's why we're working on the bylaws

Fear_of_C: well, we have them anyway

Fear_of_C: they're just not written down anywhere

gavinbaker: Fear_of_C: right, but it's hard to make any official (read: "useful") without knowing how to do so.

gavinbaker: otherwise it's just somebody's opinion, and who is he to tell you otherwise?

paulproteu: Well, skyfaller vs. mattl earlier....

paulproteu: mattl posted stuff on the blog that didn't have the tone that skyfaller expected, and people got upset.

gavinbaker: right. but what, exactly, authority did skyfaller have? it's like a tribal chieftain or something

paulproteu: And confused, and so on.

paulproteu: He had technical authority, for one.

gavinbaker: the way to avoid this upset-ness, confusion, etc. is to have a way to establish protocols

gavinbaker: so we can use the wiki to develop suggestions

paulproteu: I think documenting the current state is an important thing to do parallel to the official ones that will happen eventually.

paulproteu: I think that's what Fear_of_C means.

gavinbaker: yes, i'm not saying don't write stuff down

gavinbaker: we need to start documenting things

paulproteu: Okay, and we'll organize that through OTRS too?

gavinbaker: but don't think it'll be too useful, because there will be roadblocks where people disagree and there's no way to resolve it, yet.

gavinbaker: paulproteus: right, this is along with the "Internet documentation" stuff

Fear_of_C: again, I think we have a deeper problem (lack of authority), masked by another problem (nobody writing these things)

gavinbaker: more like FC.o how-tos

gavinbaker: Fear_of_C: right, there are two problems. we can start fixing the smaller one, but i'm just cautioning, eventually we'll run into the bigger one, unless it's resolved

Fear_of_C: I think the bigger one will come out when the smaller one is getting fixed

paulproteu: So, like, we all agree to OTRS that. Moving on?

gavinbaker: Fear_of_C: well, it's out. that's why we're writing bylaws and making a structure for the Org ;)

Fear_of_C: ok

gavinbaker: paulproteus: yeah, next

gavinbaker: i wanted to suggest calendars

paulproteu: Right.

gavinbaker: i think that's key for scheduling stuff

paulproteu: I have serious doubts that if we offer calendar syncing anyone would use it.

gavinbaker: i see the low-hanging fruit as having FC.o calendar(s)

paulproteu: I think there's a more lightweight solution. Let me find it.

paulproteu: Explain?

gavinbaker: so it's easy to see when the next meeting is

gavinbaker: if we can integrate this with deadlines in the task-management system, that'd be very useful, i think

gavinbaker: but anyway, besides seeing when the next meeting is (on the Web), it'd be nice to be able to import those dates into your personal calendar, e.g. Sunbird

paulproteu: OTRS seems to have calendar support.

gavinbaker: it'd also be nice to have upcoming dates emailed to you

Fear_of_C: calendar sounds good

gavinbaker: "hey, you're on the web team, there's a meeting tomorrow"

paulproteu: Let me look it up in the docs.

paulproteu: Sweet Jesus, gavinbaker, that would rock.

gavinbaker: so this stuff can happen automagically

gavinbaker: in my dreams, this system will also be able to IM you / SMS you at user-defined intervals, but that's more than we can reasonably hope for atm.

Fear_of_C: yeah

Fear_of_C: of course, all these alerts should be user-configurable to the extreme

gavinbaker: oh, and also it'll be able to post stuff into the IRC channel.

paulproteu: application-calendar-zoom.png and application-calendar.png

gavinbaker: even to ping the appropriate individuals.

gavinbaker: but this is real wishlist stuff, here.

Fear_of_C: use OTRS for that?

paulproteu: It might be able to do it, yeah.

paulproteu: It sounds like OTRS can help us a lot, so let's table the rest of this conversation until we've had experience with it.

paulproteu: Unless there's something specific we need to address before.

Fear_of_C: resolved? next topic

gavinbaker: well, let's see.

gavinbaker: i'm looking at both and

gavinbaker: hey, would Semantic MediaWiki help with any of this stuff?

gavinbaker: can we do anything useful with it, in terms of internal collaboration?

Fear_of_C: what is semantic mediawiki?

paulproteu: I was just looking at it.

paulproteu: But it doesn't seem so.

gavinbaker: i'm thinking particularly about meetings, task assignment, etc.

gavinbaker: since we use the wiki for meeting agendas / minutes

gavinbaker: we might think about useful ways to integrate the wiki text with other stuff

paulproteu: We'd have to have a wiki page per task.

gavinbaker: useful = adds useful information, reduces amount of work.

paulproteu: I don't see how to store calendar data in it either.

paulproteu: And it can't be smart, like OTRS can, as far as "lock breaking by time", etc.

paulproteu: Out of the box, I mean, of course.

Fear_of_C: so then

Fear_of_C: maybe some assignments get wiki'd from irc

Fear_of_C: and it automagically adds them to OTRS?

Fear_of_C: just straight out of the minutes

paulproteu: That'd be super rad, but I think more sensible is the other way, where a human modifies OTRS and the minutes figure out what happened and write it on the wiki.

Fear_of_C: sounds like a lot of really sweet wishlist stuff

gavinbaker: i lost what just happened there.

gavinbaker: paulproteus: what are you suggesting?

paulproteu: I'm suggesting that, in the awesome future, the wiki asks OTRS what tickets were assigned during a meeting and helps with that part of the minutes.

paulproteu: It's wishlist, not real.

paulproteu: For real, I think we should decide to put real effort into OTRS and call this meeting to a close.

skyfaller: I'm afriad that some of these suggestions are a bit over my head

skyfaller: sounds good to me

Signoff: cskaterun ()

peabo: does anyone need a log of this meeting?

Fear_of_C: agreed about closing the meeting

Fear_of_C: I have dinner coming up

paulproteu: Okay, meeting closing in 15s unless an objection.

Fear_of_C H 0 gaim
mark007 H 0n=mark007@pool-71-101-200-240.tampfl.dsl-w.veriz Mark
ktetch H 0n=ktetch@adsl-074-166-105-206.sip.asm.bellsouth. K`Tetch
Omnifrog H 0 Omnifrog
mllerustadH 0 Karen Rustad
gavinbakerH 0 Gavin Baker
peabo H 0 Peter Olson
tannewt H 0 n=scott@gentoo/developer/tannewt Unknown
jibot H 0 i=andy@ #JoiIto's bot
rohitj H 0 n=rohitj@ Rohit Jain
skyfaller H 0 n=nelson@wikipedia/Skyfaller Nelson Pavlosky
sj_ H 0 SJ
Ax3 H 0 ax4
jli G 0 i=jli@gateway/tor/x-513ed214ca560d4b Jli
ftobia H 0 Frank Tobia
klepas G 0 n=klepas@unaffiliated/klepas Pascal Klein
sahal H 0 can't get enough of that sugarcrisp...
_sj_ H 0 sjk
[autonomy]H 0 auto
poningru H 0 Eldo Varghese
danjared H 0n=danjared@HOW-ABOUT-A-NICE-GAME-OF-CHESS.MIT.ED D. Jared Dominguez
paulproteuG 0 Asheesh Laroia
  1. freeculture End of /WHO list.

gavinbaker: um.

gavinbaker: so for calendars, we're using OTRS?

paulproteu: For meeting calendars, yes.

gavinbaker: hey, can you see the contents of OTRS without logging in?

paulproteu: That's the suggestion, but we'll see if it works.

gavinbaker: can i go look at the calendar without logging in to my account?

paulproteu: That's a requirement. I don't know if OTRS lets it happen, but if not I can make it.

gavinbaker: are the calendars exportable in iCal / RSS?

paulproteu: iCal is a requirement for me, at least.

gavinbaker: RSS would be really nice, because i think a lot more people use an RSS reader than calendar software.

paulproteu: I really need to eat some lunch, but I'll back soonish.

paulproteu: But I'll be working on other things for most of today.

gavinbaker: paulproteus: i guess i just want to continue this conversation some how

gavinbaker: e.g. schedule the next meeting

paulproteu: I want the tech to lead the conversation.

gavinbaker: paulproteus: you know as well as i do that tech doesn't cause conversation

paulproteu: Well, I want the tech to lead the decisions to avoid conversation.

gavinbaker: if we use all this stuff, we still won't automagically meet again to talk about how we like it.

paulproteu: Yes, agreed.

gavinbaker: so i want to have a framework for evaluating OTRS, at the least.

gavinbaker: in addition, there's all this other stuff on the wiki.

gavinbaker: and all these other Web Team bugs

gavinbaker: those things don't appear to be fixing themselves

paulproteu: Yes. I will talk with you more, but as I said I will eat and work on other things for a while first.

gavinbaker: well, it's not talking with me that i'm concerned with

gavinbaker: it's people talking with each other

gavinbaker: paulproteus, if you want to talk to me about /that/, then tell me when i should be here.

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gavinbaker: well hi marshwiggleg.

gavinbaker: peabo, i'll take that long whenever you have it.

gavinbaker: s/long/log

peabo: you want the tools meeting log as well? (I just sent the bylaws log)

skyfaller: paulproteus: so when can we talk about the chapters reg page?

skyfaller: ;-)

skyfaller: that is really time critical

gavinbaker: peabo: please

peabo: ok, it'll be just a minute

Meeting minutes and logs

2005-01-02 · 2005-01-03 · 2005-01-04 · 2005-01-06 · 2005-01-08 · 2005-01-12 · 2005-01-16 · 2005-01-19 · 2005-01-22 · 2005-01-23 · 2005-01-25 · 2005-01-26 · 2005-01-28 · 2005-01-30 · 2005-01-31 · 2005-02-02 · 2005-02-06 · 2005-02-13 · 2005-02-20 · 2005-02-27 · 2005-03-02 · 2005-03-06 · 2005-03-13 · 2005-03-16 · 2005-03-20 · 2005-03-23 · 2005-03-27 · 2005-03-30 · 2005-04-03 · 2005-04-10 · 2005-04-17 · 2005-04-24 · 2005-05-01 · 2005-05-08 · 2005-05-15 · 2005-05-22 · 2005-05-29 · 2005-06-01 · 2005-06-05 · 2005-06-06 · 2005-06-10 · 2005-06-12 · 2005-06-15 · 2005-06-15/Chatlog · 2005-06-19 · 2005-06-26 · 2005-07-03 · 2005-07-10 · 2005-07-17 · 2005-07-24 · 2005-07-31 · 2005-08-01 · 2005-08-07 · 2005-08-14 · 2005-08-17 · 2005-08-21 · 2005-08-28 · 2005-09-04 · 2005-09-11 · 2005-09-18 · 2005-09-24 · 2005-10-02 · 2005-10-09 · 2005-10-16 · 2005-10-23 · 2005-10-30 · 2005-11-06 · 2005-11-13 · 2005-11-16 · 2005-11-20 · 2005-11-27 · 2005-12-04 · 2005-12-11 · 2005-12-14 · 2005-12-18 · 2005-12-18 board meeting · 2005-12-21 · 2005-12-21 board meeting · 2005-12-23 board meeting · 2005-12-27 board meeting · 2006-01-01 · 2006-01-02 · 2006-01-07 · 2006-01-09 · 2006-01-22 · 2006-01-25 · 2006-02-12 · 2006-02-13 · 2006-03-02 · 2006-03-15 · 2006-03-22 · 2006-03-26 · 2006-03-29 · 2006-04-02 · 2006-04-09 · 2006-04-26 · 2006-05-07 · 2006-05-12 · 2006-05-14 · 2006-05-17 · 2006-08-16 · 2006-09-13 · 2006-09-17 · 2006-09-17/raw log · 2006-09-20 · 2006-09-20/raw log · 2006-09-27 · 2006-10-18 · 2006-10-18/transcript · 2006-10-25 · 2006-11-01 · 2006-11-08 · 2006-12-06 · 2006-12-06/Log · 2007-01-17 · 2007-01-21 · 2007-01-24 · 2007-02-07 · 2007-02-28 · 2007-02-28/Log · 2007-03-08 · 2007-03-21 · 2007-05-25 · 2007-06-29 · 2007-07-15 · 2007-07-15/log · 2007-07-17 · 2007-07-17/log · 2007-07-22 · 2007-07-22/log · 2007-07-29 · 2007-07-29/log · 2007-08-01 · 2007-08-05 · 2007-08-05/log · 2007-08-07 · 2007-08-07/log · 2007-08-08 · 2007-08-08/log · 2007-08-12 · 2007-08-12/log/bylaws · 2007-08-12/log/tools · 2007-08-14 · 2007-08-14/log · 2007-08-16 · 2007-08-16/log · 2007-09-03 · 2007-09-03/log · 2007-09-05 · 2007-09-05/log · 2007-09-09 · 2007-09-20 · 2007-10-07